Evidence for God from Science

ryanbouma wrote: 1. Is it possible Gabriel really did visit Muhammud and then demons attacked, or he let his sin pervert the message of God? Or do most Christians think it was either totally made up or a demon right from the get go?

It is impossible. The canon was closed 500+ years before Muhammad's ''revelation.'' Ask yourself, ''Why would an angelic being visit a madman living in a cave?'' ...because that is what Muhammad was: a madman holed up in a cave. Do you really think Jesus had something to add to what He had already said?

ryanbouma wrote: 2. Is it possible for a Muslim to be saved?

It is impossible for anyone to be saved apart from the way set out in the Bible. Islam is a legalistic religion where those who do more good than evil are rewarded by Allah. There is no concept of grace in Islam, any more than there is in other false faiths. The sad truth is that all who die as professing Muslims go to hell. Sorry.

Have you considered Philip's snippets from the Qur'an? You may want to read Usama Dakdok's translation, The Generous Quran . Most English translations of the Qur'an are whitewashed and present a more polite version of the original Arabic. Dakdok's reveals the full fithiness and hatred of Muhammad's thoughts.

FL

I have considered Philip's quotes, and I appreciate them. It's shocking. And partly why I can accept that following Islam leads to hell. If someone goes along with that, they must be hard heartened.

Another question though, if you don't mind. Thanks for your patients FL, I am learning from this discussion How is someone fully immersed in Muslim culture supposed to understand there is something wrong with receiving paradise for good actions. It's somewhat intuitive for humans to think this way. Many Catholics think this way, despite claiming the Bible as truth. Many people have a hard time understanding salvation is a gift and works don't grant us our salvation. So if you've never been taught that, I can understand why they wouldn't question the requirements by Allah.

I guess what I'm asking is, is there something about Islam that should alert any same person that it's a false religion, aside from the requirement to fight? I'm not sure that's as alarming to a Muslim as it is to a Christian. After all, the "Old Testament God" sounds similar to a lot of people...

ryanbouma wrote: I guess what I'm asking is, is there something about Islam that should alert any same person that it's a false religion, aside from the requirement to fight? I'm not sure that's as alarming to a Muslim as it is to a Christian. After all, the "Old Testament God" sounds similar to a lot of people...

The ''Old Testament God'' seems similar to Allah? yes, but only to those with a superficial understanding of the Bible. That's a lot of people! Most people are not interested in faith and religions. They get their information on Christianity from the culture around them but never from the Source.

Muslims who earnestly look for God will find Him. When they do, they abandon Islam because they understand it for the Lie that it is.

Why are you asking these questions? Are you concerned about a Muslim friend?

FL

EDIT: I've just noticed that you are from Ladysmith. I used to live on Cortes Island just up the coast, near Campbell River...

I'm asking these questions to understand Islam better. I have had many "nominal" Muslim friends. It seems odd to me so many Muslims can believe so strongly in something and yet it must break down somewhere. Do they fail to see the break down? I also want to understand it better because scientifically all religions fall apart except Judaism, Islam, and Christianity afaik. So then I must know how Judaism and Islam fall apart theologically so that I can be a proper witness for God. I don't want to encounter a Muslim and say "you're wrong because my pastor told me, you should talk to him so he can save you from hell". I want to be able to clearly show him/her where the break down is internally for Islam. Secondly I want to understand how God will justly judge Muslims who have limited or possibly no exposure to Christianity.

Ryan, it might be instructive to read Romans 1 (http://www.esvbible.org/Romans+1/) - the Apostle Paul addresses the question of those without the Gospel and what they CAN know about God and what their response has overwhelmingly been:

Scripture tells us that: 1) God desires and COMMANDS that "ALL men EVERYWHERE" come to repentance and that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked; 2) People don't believe because THEY suppress the truth and have unrepentant hearts; 3) Paul tells us, for those without the Gospel, that what can be known about God (through the "General Revelation," etc) - His basic attributes and knowledge of Him - are CLEAR to them, and yet knowing these, "they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him," and so these heathen have rejected the light ALREADY given to them (Romans 1: 19-21); 4) God is not limited by geographic location or circumstances, as He is as close as our very breath - meaning that no matter how remote or wherever in the world one lives, IF one truly desires to know more about Him - He will send a missionary, a Bible, a tract, a website - whatever, whomever and however he chooses to, He WILL send the Gospel to one who is truly "WILLING," receptive and He foreknows will positively respond to it.

It is not God Who rejects the heathen (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=ESV) - Scripture clearly teaches that it is THEY who reject Him. But God is not going to let those intent upon rejecting Him/not honoring what HE HAS ALREADY SHOWN THEM ABOUT HIMSELF, dictate the terms of entering heaven. In fact, as Heaven is ALL ABOUT GOD - the very God unrepentant unbelievers DELIBERATELY AND PERMANENTLY reject - as it is apparent that they want nothing to do with the entire purpose of heaven (God showing His love and glory to those desiring to be - and ARE - HIS people). Such people want a heaven without God, and on their own evil terms.

Also, see this thread that goes into questions about those without the Gospel/those lacking knowledge of Jesus:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=heathen

Ryan, here is the site of Ergun Caner, a former Muslim who came to faith in the Lord:

http://www.erguncaner.com

I don't visit the site often but I first heard of Dr Caner in 2004.

The site I gave you in my first post, http://www.fortressoffaith.org has a course - and materials for purchase - on how to approach Muslims with the Gospel.

Lastly, I recommend you read the links Philip has provided, and that you ask God for guidance in dealing with the unbelievers you encounter.

FL

Today's headline: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/19 ... latestnews - a page right out of Muhammad's playbook! Today's Islamists are simply "old school" (see VERY "old school") Muslims, merely staying faithful to the clear teachings of the Qur'an while also channeling the effective techniques long brutally used throughout their history.

I'm starting to see that the peaceful Muslims are the ones who ignore parts of the Koran... I've known quite a few Muslims, and none of them would ever behave like that. But they seem like the minority right now. Or at least the ones that ignore the teachings of Muhammad. Pretty sad reading that article.

Thanks guys.

And what does the Qur'an have to say about the "love" of Allah? http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/love.htm (a wonderful site, by the way, for those searching to understand Islam, it's history, it's important differences from Christianity/The Bible) Contrast the Qur'an's teachings on the character of Allah/his expectations and those of the God/Jesus of Christianity.

In Islam, ALL of Allah's love for man is based upon that man's works. And one can never know if one's works are ever enough to enter his heaven. There is no personal relationship of trust with Allah. One can only obey Allah and hope that they have been acceptable in "his" eyes.

ryanbouma wrote:I'm starting to see that the peaceful Muslims are the ones who ignore parts of the Koran... I've known quite a few Muslims, and none of them would ever behave like that. But they seem like the minority right now. Or at least the ones that ignore the teachings of Muhammad. Pretty sad reading that article.

Thanks guys.

If you want to look into this further, I would suggest researching topics such as the abrogator/abrogated (sayings in the Qur'an that were abrogated by other sayings), reasons behind the current layout of the Qur'an (not chronological in order to conceal what was abrogated, in an effort to deceive not only infidels but also lay Muslims and keep the true knowledge of Islam in the hands of the select few, i.e. the imams), the notion of dhimmitude and who it applies to, etc. etc.

The true Muslims who are practicing the true Islam are the salafists (sunnis) on one hand, i.e. Al Quaeda, the Taliban and the like. And on the other hand the safavids (shi'ites) of Iran.

John 1:8-10 "He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.…"

I can't say I know how every man is enlightened to the truth. We know that not every person will be provided a biblical perpective of God or Jesus. However, ANYTHING that is truth (in a moral and spiritual perspective), is only so because Jesus is the way, truth and life. A Muslim can certainly know and persue the truth. I read an account from a man who was a hitman for a radical Islamic group. He trusted Christ and then even had the opportunity to witness to Yassir Arafat. He actually thought that Arafat secretly trusted Christ for Himself. Sounds outrageous, but who knows.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

ryanbouma wrote: Islam is a legalistic religion where those who do more good than evil are rewarded by Allah. There is no concept of grace in Islam, any more than there is in other false faiths. The sad truth is that all who die as professing Muslims go to hell. Sorry.

Interesting topic but quite numerous issues I have trouble with. firstly, why be so "fundamentalist" and play the judge in deciding who will be saved and who not? who gives us men the power to decide that someone won't be saved just because he's in a different faith? to me that's so repugnant. i mean, a god of love sending millions to hell simply because they were born in a "bad religion". isn't God's grace more than that we can imagine? and who is to judge who will go where when we have no idea what those people's conscience was and whether they acted in accordance or against it? i guess somewhere it says "unbelievers" will be judged according to their conscience
second, you believe christianity is true and the only way because you may have been raised with it and had personal experience with god, live in a relationship with Him etc. that's all fair, but I can guarantee there could be millions of people from OTHER religions claiming the same. you know, i've seen various "sects" if you want, and they all pretty much say the same when they switch. catholics say others are sects because of this and that and they say catholicism is a false religion because they use the bible to find numerous issues with it - idolatry in praying to saints, having the mass - 1 group i met believes it's an occult practice because Christ's sacrifice was complete upon the cross and nothing can be added to it. they claim the Eucharist and transsubstantion is demonic as this is like magic and they could quote endless bible passages to justify their claim. to a catholic that sounds insane and even blasphemous, but after trying to step back and take different points of view all i realized is that I'm not to judge and i can't know the truth by myself. each side has their points and to the other side may seem insane and about to be burned in hell forever.
and I've read conversions from catholic to sthg else, from mormon to jehovah's witnesses - somehow, there are similar elements in all of them: upon reading the bible they felt what they'd believed was wrong and they became utterly 100% inside out convinced that the new faith is right. no doubts, they felt convinced it was "the only true God". when a catholic was shown something about their eucharist, he'd say it was from God but if it was in the other group, he'd say it's demonic. do you see the point I'm making? people can be fooled into believing their belief system is true... and sorry to say this but also fooled and blinded into not seeing ANY problems... well, the more I want to have genuine faith in christ, the more problems i face
sure, i'm not denying christianity couldn't be true, but let's not forget to imagine what it's like being in their shoes. you are brought up believing islam/mormonism/judaism/whatever is the only truth. and you believe it inside out. then how on earth could you be judged for not believing the supposed "truth" if there was no sure way of knowing it? how can one be condemned for sthg he wasn't able to be respnsible for? to me that's utter madness and demagogy and there is no speck of love or grace in that.
and thirdly, some of you mentioned you have problems with islam. well i'm trying hard to understand my christian faith but sadly there are hundreds of issues that are baffling me all the time. God in the OT and legalism - strict laws which had to be respected and any disobedience was severely punished. is that a god of love? and then that same God said "go and kill other nations because i'm giving them into your hand". why does God command one thing in general but then commands the opposite? that's just one of my "personal" issues" I'm having. the more i try come closer to the christian God (and that of judaism) i always find sthg that's just making me disgusted, disappointed and unable to sympathize with his character. i know this may be irrelevant to the topic, but I can very much sympathize with other faiths or even sects or those atheists who would want to believe but always find some issue which puts them off

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: The ''Old Testament God'' seems similar to Allah? yes, but only to those with a superficial understanding of the Bible. That's a lot of people! Most people are not interested in faith and religions. They get their information on Christianity from the culture around them but never from the Source.

Muslims who earnestly look for God will find Him. When they do, they abandon Islam because they understand it for the Lie that it is.

Let's be honest here. While a person using their God-given reason while seeking genuinely after God will probably reject the Quran with it's violence and hatred, is that same person going to see the Bible as any different? With sections like Numbers 31: 1-19 being present? Jesus affirmed the truth of the Old Testament, so if one accepts the Bible as God's Word, they necessarily have to agree that God condoned the killing of children and raping of women of a race who historically advised the israelites to do something against God's commands. This is not a God of omnibenevolence, and this is just one of many examples.

Ask yourself, ''Why would an angelic being visit a madman living in a cave?'' ...because that is what Muhammad was: a madman holed up in a cave.

You mean much like Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and John the Baptist?

Seraph wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: The ''Old Testament God'' seems similar to Allah? yes, but only to those with a superficial understanding of the Bible. That's a lot of people! Most people are not interested in faith and religions. They get their information on Christianity from the culture around them but never from the Source.

Muslims who earnestly look for God will find Him. When they do, they abandon Islam because they understand it for the Lie that it is.

Let's be honest here. While a person using their God-given reason while seeking genuinely after God will probably reject the Quran with it's violence and hatred, is that same person going to see the Bible as any different? With sections like Numbers 31: 1-19 being present? Jesus affirmed the truth of the Old Testament, so if one accepts the Bible as God's Word, they necessarily have to agree that God condoned the killing of children and raping of women of a race who historically advised the israelites to do something against God's commands. This is not a God of omnibenevolence, and this is just one of many examples.

Ask yourself, ''Why would an angelic being visit a madman living in a cave?'' ...because that is what Muhammad was: a madman holed up in a cave.

You mean much like Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and John the Baptist?

I find it interesting that folks who pride themselves on fairness and how reasonable and intelligent they are, forget so soon by making unreasonable unfair assumptions about the Bible. Reason is tossed out the door by ignoring the brutal and perverse moral climate which ruled the ancient world, and ignore that things have changed since then, and that through Jesus Christ the old covenant is no more.

Now, if what you contend is true, please cite evidence of truly Born Again Christians stoning someone to death for adultery, or slaying children for not honoring their parents, going about and converting by the sword...please show me where some Christian or group of Christians surrounds your home and forces you to covert or die? or enforcing you to go to church to do your weekly knee bends or else? or going about to ethnically cleanse New York City of all New Yorkers...

Put up or shut the heck up....

I am talking about real born again Christians, not some whacked out cult group like Westburro - who do not represent or are even Christians by any stretch of the imagination, or any nazi group of hypnotics hypocrites abusing the bible. How about some honest and actual use of reason and intelligence for a change? Let's discus how Christians do not butcher, mane, and kill or not seek to conquer the world thru the sword of ethnic cleansing? Who the heck is holding a gun to your head making you convert or attend church - tell me.

Then ask who is it that is using real political force to destroy Christianity with such pseudo equivalency arguments as I just heard. I am deeply offended but who cares about the offending of Christians by those who tout we must cease to exist? Their cause is just - ethnically cleanse Christianity off the face of the planet -- ehhh???

Get over the Old Covenant, it was a long time ago and at least prove oneself intellectually honest...

Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. NKJV
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I'm not talking about Christians, I'm talking about the Bible.

The old covenant was a long time ago. But the same God allegedly made both the old and new covenants.