Evidence for God from Science

born2wonder wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

1over137 wrote:
There are no magic or spiritual words we can say that will flick a switch. "We" can only present what we know as best as we can, and strive with those who do not believe as best as we can. But... I stop at continually casting pearls to be trodden on over and over. There is no reason why we should not have such boundaries. And there is no reason to believe we're doing something wrong when people don't listen, anymore than God did when Pharaoh would not listen.

I cut much of previous post for brevity. The title of this thread (as I mentioned, I am new here last night) is 'The Foolishness of Non-Believers'. Is it possible that designating non-believers as being foolish might encourage an approach by a non-believer that is not the most respectful? It seems that the believer's approach in that title is not very respectful.

I am a non-believer, having been a very active believer, church goer, condemning a lot of people who were not Christians (mainly in my mind, rather than publicly) for 40 some years of my life. For reasons, some of which are not entirely clear to me, other than saying I developed a different opinion after years of being alive, I am no longer a believer, and very strongly feel that no believer can show me a rational reason (other than Pascal's Wager) to ever believe again. I have had quite a bit of discussion online on this subject over the past several years, and generally my experience has been that the believers, especially the fundamentalist believers, are a very nasty rude group (which I probably was rather secretively before), and not very accepting of opinions of others, even if they are presented in a polite organized fashion. Yes, there are people who come on these sites just to be a pain (I have noted that seems to be the case mainly on the side of believers - in the sites that I am most familiar). They have no arguments, no information, just personal attacks and threats of eternal torment.

My life is surrounded by believers. My mother is an 89 year old very active church worker, choir singer, and occasional soloist at church. Her 88 year old sister is a retired minister, in several choirs, and works extensively in her church (so I have heard, at the expense of becoming somewhat of an annoyance to those in charge, because they want to run things their way, which is their right).

Regarding presenting "what you know, as best you can", I have found that people present not what they "know" but what they believe, in spite of what they actually know, in a lot of cases, in discussions. To the best of my knowledge, and I am well educated, a life-long reader, and have always enjoyed good discussion, there is only "belief" when it comes to things of the supernatural, miracles, God and the Bible.

There have been no actual confirmed evidences of anything related to religious beliefs as at this point in time (if there had been would we not have, as we did with the flat earth belief, stopped not believing?).

I have a tendency, to run on and on and on........., both in my posts and in my personal face to face chats with people, in the rare occasions that they permit me to speak. That is a personality problem I have, so I apologize for saying in many words, likely, what I could have said in one sentence.

I do take these discussions seriously though, when those I debate also take them seriously.

B2W, that portion you quoted was from me (Kurieuo).

And unless you associate yourself with the type of foolish person I'm describing in my original post, then you really don't need to respond to it.

Just keep posting and your motivations will become clear. The fact you at least describe yourself as non-Christian is already in your favour as a positive sign that you are interested in some sort of true dialogue.

PS. Welcome by the way

Each side christian or non-christian has their fair share of foolishness. My personal opinion is that your post here is pointless. You are pointing the finger at others describing how they tried to join this forum with the intention of bashing...

What have you accomplished with this post? Nothing else than stating the obvious... but by doing that you are actually kind of bashing others in a more polite way...

You were saying that some of them ran away when the tough questions came their way... The real question is and this is just a personal view: why should there be tough questions?

I have admitted several times that jac and dom are far ahead of me in relation to their knowledge about philosophy and logic, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them based on that.

There is no religion which is straight forward. Every religion had and has spiritual leaders who guide the masses.

For me that is a big issue as every person should have an equal chance of understanding divinity. Well, that is clearly not the case since christianity/other religions had a lot of chosen prophets, figures etc etc.

It is clear that divinities do not treat every person equally as all people would have had the chance of revelation.

My point is that non-believers are not treated equally.

BryanH wrote:Each side christian or non-christian has their fair share of foolishness. My personal opinion is that your post here is pointless. You are pointing the finger at others describing how they tried to join this forum with the intention of bashing...

What have you accomplished with this post? Nothing else than stating the obvious... but by doing that you are actually kind of bashing others in a more polite way...

I'm not bashing in a polite way. I'm being quite forthright.

Keep in mind "Many Non-believers" does not equal "All Non-believers.

If you are associating yourself as the type of non-believer I describe in my opening post of this thread, then I'll quite openly say I think you're foolish.

But, you don't seem like that kind of person. I'd likewise call the believer who pretends on an Atheist forum to be Atheist and inject their Christian beliefs as being foolish. But... it just so happens I've experience many Atheists here trying to play some games over the past 11+ years.

I don't like these pretenders on the board. They deserve zero respect. Are gutless. Waste people's time. Insincere. And ultimately foolish. I'm not trying to be polite.

BUT. Please re-read my opening post as to the kind of people I'm referring to. I don't see you as the person I was referring to. Trust me though, I do get what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree with the gist of what you said. It is just misdirected.

Kurieuo wrote:If you are associating yourself as the type of non-believer I describe in my opening post of this thread, then I'll quite openly say I think you're foolish.

You didn't actually get the essence of what I was saying. Calling people foolish and saying they did this and that is not helping anyone. Why did they act like that?

And besides that, labeling people is not the best approach anyways... That is how you create a basic form of segregation.

It was always like that and it will always be like that as long as there is this "foolish" conflict between believers and non-believers.

Bryan,

I'm not claiming anything more than what Scripture itself does not claim:

• Romans 2
  18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
  
  21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

You know who these "fools"' are? Ultimately, it's all of us. Sin causes the blindness, our foolish hate for God and the world He created.

• Romans 3
  10 As it is written:
  “There is no one righteous, not even one;
  11 there is no one who understands;
  there is no one who seeks God.
  12 All have turned away,
  they have together become worthless;
  there is no one who does good,
  not even one.”

And there is but one cure to our foolishness: Romans 3:20-24

I get you full well, but you don't actually seem to be getting me. Tell me. According to my own Christian beliefs in what I presented above, why do they act like that?

And trust me, I know full well how fun labels are. I emphatically reject your ad hominem undertones to any kind of racial segregation within my words. But, I can't fault you fully for identify some segregation. Since humanity is segregated from God duly to our foolishness. And yet, God pursued us in Christ -- foolishness to those who do not believe, an yet God saved us from our own foolishness through the foolishness of the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:18-25)

As for my original post. Would it make you more happy if I simply replaced "foolishness" with "distastefulness"? I really don't see the point. If it quacks. We label it a duck.

Kurieuo wrote:According to my own Christian beliefs in what I presented above, why do they act like that?

Because religion have been used as a shield for other political/economical/social interests. Keep in mind that I'm not talking here about beliefs. The problem is that religious people and I'm not talking here about christianity only have involved themselves in other areas where literally had no business at all.

Personal Opinion:

What you see today as the atheism movement is mainly a reaction to what religion has been associated with in the past. So that is why people react sometimes very strongly this way.

And look at how you presented the problem yourself. You say to me that the scripture says this and that. I honestly don't care about it. You are free to follow the scripture in your own free time, in your own home, in your church... you got the point, but as long as your pursuit of God doesn't have any effect on me, the non-believer.

The problem comes when you actually try to extend those scripture rules to people who don't actually recognize your scripture as valid... Why would you try to do that in the first place?

I have expressed my opinion here on this forum quite several times about the difference between social rules and the "laws of God".

Correct me if I am wrong: are there any social rules at the moment that forbid you to follow the Scriptures?

If the answer is no, why do you quote the Scriptures telling me that there is only cure for foolishness and keep on and on about God?

As I said, I the non-believer, don't really care about that, do I?


How do we find the common ground?

Nobody seems to care about this issue. So the bashing continues... goes on and on in circles

BryanH wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:According to my own Christian beliefs in what I presented above, why do they act like that?

Because religion have been used as a shield for other political/economical/social interests. Keep in mind that I'm not talking here about beliefs. The problem is that religious people and I'm not talking here about christianity only have involved themselves in other areas where literally had no business at all.

Personal Opinion:

What you see today as the atheism movement is mainly a reaction to what religion has been associated with in the past. So that is why people react sometimes very strongly this way.

And look at how you presented the problem yourself. You say to me that the scripture says this and that. I honestly don't care about it. You are free to follow the scripture in your own free time, in your own home, in your church... you got the point, but as long as your pursuit of God doesn't have any effect on me, the non-believer.

The problem comes when you actually try to extend those scripture rules to people who don't actually recognize your scripture as valid... Why would you try to do that in the first place?

I present the problem like icecream in my opening post.

I'm entitled to think the behaviour of someone else unbecoming who basis their posts here upon deceitfulness. Besides ethical issues, this is just a matter of me exercising my personal freedom and subjective taste. Funny, that a Materialistic worldview doesn't really allow for freedom once reduced, which most philosophers today on both sides of the argument re: Determinism do tend to understand.

So, I'm already speaking from a Christian framework in embracing that we really do exist, can make choices and exercise decisions. Oh, sorry, but you don't really care about that. And yet, I'm sure you no doubt assume many other things in a Theistic and even Christian worldview not supported by your own.

Now, I do not like the behaviour of some people who come to a forum, and who pretend to be someone they're not to only antagonize and waste the time of other posters. They are quite frankly foolish in my eye = fools.

You have tried to bend this into some sort of debate or argument. But how do you argue that someone is wrong to hate strawberry icecream? Congrats for trying though.

Going back to the Scripture that I presented which you don't care about and wonder why I present. Well, you have just supported what I said. You think us foolish for believing in Christ and the work of the cross as found in Scripture. You're not stating anything here that I didn't already cover in my post before yours.

So why would I give such examples? Because you asked for my opinion. They're appropriate to me and what I see as the root cause of people's disbelief or willing ignorance which is sin and hate for God. You believe otherwise. Why should I subscribe to just your position?

Bryan wrote:I have expressed my opinion here on this forum quite several times about the difference between social rules and the "laws of God".

Correct me if I am wrong: are there any social rules at the moment that forbid you to follow the Scriptures?

Great work on expressing your opinion! I always welcome people presenting substance to their positions.

As for your question, please restate. I don't really understand. But, perhaps you could explain to me on what basis "social rules" can arise from chemistry? Given Materialism or the like, on what basis we are free to follow "social rules"? Or what basis "the self" even exists beyond being some strange mental vapor that only appears to have freedom?

Without this foundation, which I believe an Atheistic view of the world does not provide, you can't even get started with "social rules". And any concept of our having free choices, right and wrong, fairness, justice and the like which our legal systems in our societies fundamentally assume as true are wrong.

Bryan wrote:If the answer is no, why do you quote the Scriptures telling me that there is only cure for foolishness and keep on and on about God?

As I said, I the non-believer, don't really care about that, do I?

How do we find the common ground?

If you don't care, than is it not foolish to ask?

In any case, on my view, it is the foolishness in the hearts of humanity that God is rejected. If you want me to accept your position, then you'll need to present me with a more coherent view of the world than my own. Just as it would be ignorant of me to expect you to just accept what I say, so too it is ignorant of you if you just expect me to accept what you say. Is this not a discussion between two people who have two completely different positions?

How do we find common ground? A test I propose which I believe is quite practical, is the logical coherency of a world view.

You've not presented an actual case for your own assumed position and what this entails about reality. In fact, my guess is that you don't really have much of a position on reality that makes sense of many foundational beliefs that you likely accept (some of which I touched upon above). Consider that a challenge -- I'm open to being proven wrong here.

If you are an Atheist, even strictly a Materialist or the like, and you believe that you have a more coherent view of the world than say someone who embraces Christianity, then I'd love to challenge you to discuss the nature of reality. While you don't care about what I believe, I always welcome people offering up substantial beliefs that differ to my own.

I have a thread created especially here for that purpose: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

All the best, K

Kurieuo wrote:How do we find common ground? A test I propose which I believe is quite practical, is the logical coherency of a world view.

I said this quite a few times here on this forum: nobody has anything that comes close to a logical coherent world view. All we have at the moment is a pseudo world view at best.

We barely managed to send a unmanned probe to Mars. We basically know nothing about how the Universe works. We do have a few theories here and there, but nothing certain.

And you are telling me that you do have a logical coherent world view. You actually have nothing when you consider the size of the universe and how limited we are in finding out more about it.

Don't get me wrong, I am familiar with the Christian view on how the Universe was created and although it does have logical coherency, unfortunately it does not have the necessary depth to explain questions that arise daily.


As long as you can't accept that, you will always be on the opposite side with someone who wants more than a simple logical coherency...

Now coming back a bit to the topic, I don't like people who deceive and pretend because there is no actual positive outcome, but at the same time I do see the a lot of limitations in the Scriptures and that is why I choose to place myself on an opposite side. That of course doesn't mean that we can't learn anything from the christian dogma.

I am willing to learn from you, but can you do the same and compromise?

BryanH wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:How do we find common ground? A test I propose which I believe is quite practical, is the logical coherency of a world view.

I said this quite a few times here on this forum: nobody has anything that comes close to a logical coherent world view. All we have at the moment is a pseudo world view at best.

We barely managed to send a unmanned probe to Mars. We basically know nothing about how the Universe works. We do have a few theories here and there, but nothing certain.

And you are telling me that you do have a logical coherent world view. You actually have nothing when you consider the size of the universe and how limited we are in finding out more about it.

Don't get me wrong, I am familiar with the Christian view on how the Universe was created and although it does have logical coherency, unfortunately it does not have the necessary depth to explain questions that arise daily.


As long as you can't accept that, you will always be on the opposite side with someone who wants more than a simple logical coherency...

Now coming back a bit to the topic, I don't like people who deceive and pretend because there is no actual positive outcome, but at the same time I do see the a lot of limitations in the Scriptures and that is why I choose to place myself on an opposite side. That of course doesn't mean that we can't learn anything from the christian dogma.

I am willing to learn from you, but can you do the same and compromise?

You are willing to learn from me? You are quite funny Bryan.

I say that because, well, first you just over-reacted to the opening title of the topic: "The Foolishing of Many Non-believers" without it seems reading my opening post. How do I know this? Because you entirely misunderstood what I was saying as unfairly applying to ALL Non-believers. It is clear to anyone who reads my opening post that THAT is not the case at all. In fact I purposely used that title knowing people like you would just read the title, get irked and respond without really reading what I wrote.

Second, when pointed out you were mistaken about what I meant, then you progressively start trying to change the topic to go on the attack of my beliefs. Beliefs that you asked for, for example, when you questioned me on why I believe non-believers act in such a foolish way. And then, when I respond providing with my Christian opinion of our foolishness as humans against God, what do you do...? You write how you do not care about Scripture and ask "Why would you try to do that [respond with Scripture] in the first place?" Err, because I not trying to win a debate like you, but rather sincerely respond to your question and continue discussions with you so long as I see some profit to it. You want to win the debate, then ok. I give in. You win.

Third, it seems clear to me that you are not really wanting to learn. For you write in one post about not caring about my beliefs which you asked for. If you cared, you'd not so quickly try to knock what you believe to already know. I rarely find what I'd consider well-mannered and intelligent non-Christians posting here. Most of them leave once they have their fun playing foolhardy games. BGoodForGoodSake was an older poster I really respected. Ivellious, who I know equally finds me as annoying at times as perhaps you do, nonetheless keeps his composure perhaps better than I and has contributed much to this board as a non-Christian.

If you were truly here to listen and learn, then I'd expect you to be more like these two posters (and some other newer ones I've recently discussions with who popped their head in). For our differences, I really applaud them for their manner and willingness to discuss and weigh in. And you know what? They are actually listened to when they speak and do influence the opinion of others here, as I'm sure they also get to learn from some Christian posters here because they don't just want to try and mock creation beliefs.

Finally, take a read of everything in your last post before your concluding statement/question where you write: "I am willing to learn from you, but can you do the same and compromise?" Everything you wrote in your post up until then shows you are actually not willing to learn. Rather, you assume to already know what I believe, and have already judged it incoherent without me even putting much on the table. Second, it seems you are misunderstanding my use of Coherentism in epistemological sense since you use the term quite generally.

For example, when you presume to know my beliefs saying: "Don't get me wrong, I am familiar with the Christian view on how the Universe was created and although it does have logical coherency, unfortunately it does not have the necessary depth to explain questions that arise daily" -- this shows you are using "coherency" quite generally. This is not how I was using it. First, in response to your statement here, there is actually not one view of creation within Christianity; but rather many views and I sincerely doubt that you would be familiar with them all. However, if we talk about Theism per se, then you are still in a sticky situation as an Atheist to explain where our universe came from. Theism appears much less absurd and logical in this respect.

Now, back to "Coherency", where you mistakenly appear to believe one area of belief (the universe) represents the coherency of an entire worldview, this is actually one puzzle piece in an entire view of the world. There are other puzzle pieces here such as "free will" vs "determinism", "the self", "morality", "goodness", "beauty", "fairness/justice", "meaning of life", "truth" and much, much more that philosophers reason about. Responses to all these issues and more help to build a logically coherent view of the world.

Returning the final statement of your last post which suggests I am not willing to learn... in case you missed it, I re-invite you to put your own position with re: the nature of reality on the table. Again, I look forward to you providing something substantial here: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

I think the posts here are done. Let's let it get back to my originally topic. But I hope you can help me to learn about some of your own beliefs in that other thread.

PS. Thad, you're making me feel really unloved here. Where are my likes? You're making me feel sad. I'm not feeling your love for my posts.

Kurieuo wrote:PS. Thad, you're making me feel really unloved here. Where are my likes? You're making me feel sad. I'm not feeling your love for my posts.

My apologies, but I usually have little time between shifts to wade through all of the posts/comments put forward here. Unfortunately that leads to me 'skimming' over the 'Current replied too.." posts and thence having only a small chance to read through some of these.

It is also why my responses to questions have been lacking. I simply don't have the time to put together as full a post as would be needed most of the time.

As for the two faves to BryanH? I simply find those posts 'Good'.

(Or perhaps 'Gooder'...? ) In that they are both 'general'(In tone) and concise(In answering/reply).

Much cheers to all.

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:PS. Thad, you're making me feel really unloved here. Where are my likes? You're making me feel sad. I'm not feeling your love for my posts.

My apologies, but I usually have little time between shifts to wade through all of the posts/comments put forward here. Unfortunately that leads to me 'skimming' over the 'Current replied too.." posts and thence having only a small chance to read through some of these.

It is also why my responses to questions have been lacking. I simply don't have the time to put together as full a post as would be needed most of the time.

As for the two faves to BryanH? I simply find those posts 'Good'.

(Or perhaps 'Gooder'...? ) In that they are both 'general'(In tone) and concise(In answering/reply).

Much cheers to all.

That makes me feel a little better... I think.

I'll simply take that as I get too 'detailed' and 'blabbery' to be able to quickly read.

Hopefully someone finds substance to them otherwise I may as well spend my time elsewhere.

Hey K, you can insert some bold text into your long posts, so that when someone is only skimming and reads your bold parts he can get the idea.

1over137 wrote:Hey K, you can insert some bold text into your long posts, so that when someone is only skimming and reads your bold parts he can get the idea.

Are you telling me that Thad isn't the only one who finds my posts too much?

Kurieuo wrote:

1over137 wrote:Hey K, you can insert some bold text into your long posts, so that when someone is only skimming and reads your bold parts he can get the idea.

Are you telling me that Thad isn't the only one who finds my posts too much?

Not at all.

1over137 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

1over137 wrote:Hey K, you can insert some bold text into your long posts, so that when someone is only skimming and reads your bold parts he can get the idea.

Are you telling me that Thad isn't the only one who finds my posts too much?

Not at all.

Don't worry, I know I can get blabbery. I'll try rectify that below.

Interestingly, I left on my computer and browser open on this thread. My wife ended up reading over some the posts here and out of many really liked my one with Scripture. Imagine that Bryan? What you don't care about it, other readers do! She mentioned not being aware to what the Bible said of foolishness and fools.

She also mentioned that I should have quoted 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 in my post, since people likely wouldn't go and read it (especially if it is Scripture, eh Bryan? ).

So to fix this situation, I'll take some liberty to write a parody summarising some of the exchanges between Bryan and myself.

___________________

Bryan: What have you accomplished with your post? You're not treating non-believers fairly. You are simply bashing in a more polite way.

Kurieuo: But, I'd equally call the believer pretending on to be Atheist on an Atheist forum foolish. I'm just saying the non-believing pretenders on the board deserve zero respect. Are gutless. Waste people's time. Insincere. And ultimately foolish. I'm not trying to be polite.

Bryan: Calling people foolish and saying they did this and that is not helping anyone. Why did they act like that?

Kurieuo: 1 Corinthians 1:18-25

• 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
  19 For it is written,
  "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
  And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."
  20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
  21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
  22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
  23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
  24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
  25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Bryan: Bah! You say to me that the scripture says this and that. I honestly don't care about it. You are free to follow the scripture in your own free time, in your own home, in your church...

Kurieuo: But, you...

Bryan: Look as a non-believer I don't recognize your scripture as valid... Why would you quote the Scriptures in the first place?

Kurieuo: Umm. I was just offering my beliefs since you asked me why these non-believers act in such a foolishly deceitful manner. And I'm a Christian.

Bryan: As I said, I the non-believer, don't really care about that, do I?

Kurieuo: You do realise that Scripture is actually supporting you here?

Bryan: Huh, but why do you quote the Scriptures telling me that there is only cure for foolishness and keep on and on about God?

Kurieuo: Well, sounds like you think my Christian beliefs foolish. You don't care about Scripture. You don't care about the cross. You don't care about the foolishness of ALL humanity rejecting God.

Bryan: Yes, because I'm a non-believer. I place myself on an opposite side.

Kurieuo: So then you're dismissing my beliefs out of hand because they're found in "Scripture" and you're a non-believer?

Bryan: I do see the a lot of limitations in the Scriptures and that is why I place myself on the other side.

Kurieuo: But, Scripture agrees with you that my beliefs about being saved are foolishness to you, just as you are saying.

Bryan: Of course it doesn't mean that we can't learn anything from the christian dogma.

Kurieuo: And yet despite your agreement with Scripture here, you earlier rejected "Scripture" for no other reason than it's "Scripture" and you're a non-believer... How is that logical?

Bryan: Look, believing God just created the universe has no depth to explain deeper questions that arise. You will always be on the opposite side with someone who wants more than a simple logical coherency...

Kurieuo: Ooo-kay then...

Bryan: I am willing to learn from you, but can you do the same and compromise?

___________________

If anyone feels I am here being unfair, then our fuller exchanges are obviously here for all to read.