Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote:BW,

No one is arguing the content of the text. The argument is whether this phenomenon in Pentecostal circles is the same as what Paul references in 1 Corinthians.

I have attended a Bible study with several men who so called speak in tongues. They often do this under their breath when we are having group prayer. If anything it is disruptive, even at low volume. Why? Because it obviously makes no sense. I trust these men, and have known them for years. I choose to look at this as a secondary issue, as do they. I think I have been very gracious and have even prayed that if this is genuine, I want God to reveal this to me. So far, in eight years, I've received nothing to confirm this to be the case.

Fact is, this exist and Paul stated not to forbid it. These gifts did not vanish away yet. This vanishing cannot be contextually supported by misquoting 1 Co 13:10. The perfect that comes, is spoke of plainly in Rev 21:6 when the Lord says IT IS DONE at the time of the new heaven and earth. The reason as to why 1 Co 13:12 - I know in part - is that after you write, speak, teach, etc, the gifts of HS,these come to an end, fulfilled in purpose sometime during our mortal life; therefore, new words, gifts, are needed after the others fulfilled their purposes.

I would say the burden here is on you to defend this interpretation. The author and audience are both different here.
The context of 1 Cor. is dealing with a church that was abusing and misusing the gifts. He was addressing "tongues" in the sense that whatever was happening in these meetings was NOT tongues at all. That is often overlooked. We shouldn't read too much into the gracious manner in which Paul is dealing with this wayward fellowship, whose meetings have fallen into turmoil and dissaray.

Paul does reference that there is some genuine gift of tongues. Still, the only genuine example we have of tongues is in the book of Acts, and we can deduce that this is nothing like what we see in charasmatic circles today.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Acts 2:6 "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."
What is clear from this text is that the gift was that listeners heard the speaker and UNDERSTOOD.

I agree with you and agree with what Paul said in 1 Co 12 that people can a do make dumb idols out of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That is what most folks end up doing - acting like what is written in 1 Co 13:1-3.

Yes, there are false spirits out there too that folks are ensnared with.

The real gifts of the Holy Spirit will cause us to learn from mistakes and repent of the 1 Co 13:1-3 ways and will learn to no longer speak rudely - divide the Church, or act proudly. Sadly some remain this way regarding the gifts of languages and refuse to repent of turning something holy into an idol. Recall, the ancient Jews did this with the Law too so it can happen with any of the holy things God grants us. What I am attempting to say is that we, including myself, regain spiritual sanity on these matters and be governed in the uses of the Gifts by what Paul mentions as the most excellent way - of Agape. There is a need to start somewhere so it might as well begin here.

It is because of fear of abuses of the gifts that many eschew them altogether. Thus, the hunger for God displaying his Glory as He promised is equally stained as one abusing the gifts do so that nothing is the result. The Church progresses up to a point and sort of stops. People grow weary and often fall away due to boredom in places that fear the gifts or victimized by abuses of making gifts dumb idols by those that refuse the governance of God's spiritual gifts by his Love.

There is a balance and that balance is found in 1 Co 13:1-13. Let's return to that and bring glory back to God and not ourselves is all what I am attempting to explain. I condemn the abuses of tongues as much as anyone here has done, and I also condemn the denial of them too that tosses out the baby with the bath water. This puts me in a predicament, I can either deny the power of God out of fear or attempt to demonstrate the balance correction Paul lead into in 1 Co 13:1-13 regarding those who make dumb idols out of the gifts. I most likely will not be popular with either side but the bible is plain on this matter - let us all move on into the maturity that God's Governing Agape brings...

(Let These gifts of wisdom, knowledge, Faith, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, mercy, healings, working of miracles, prophecy discerning of spirits, tongues and interpretations, administrations governed/influence by God’s) Love - that most excellent way... that guides each of these to...

…suffer long and is kind… does not envy…does not parade itself

,,, is not puffed up … does not behave rudely … does not seek its own … is not provoked,

… thinks no evil … does not rejoice in iniquity… rejoices in the truth

… bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things
-
-
-

RickD wrote:At times I've been critical of GotQuestions.org. But I think they got this one correct.
http://www.gotquestions.org/gift-of-tongues.html

Without fail, every time I've heard someone "speaking in tongues", it was to edify/bring attention to self, make one sound super-spiritual, or was disruptive to prayer or someone else speaking(pastor).

"Tongues" that I've heard, has ALWAYS been babble, and not a real language.

When it isn't, then, does not it produce envy, parade itself i.e. puffs up, behaves rudely, seeks its own way (rules), cannot bear all things?

In this, I agree with and been a victim myself from those who made dumb idols out of the gifts mentioned in 1 Co 12 and 14. I could have grown hard against these or learn the bitter lesson needed to move on into a maturing faith that needs constant house cleaning by the Lord, growing more in His Grace than my own.

The hallmark of making any of the gifts into dumb idols, or being influenced by something other that the Holy Spirit of God, is what you Rick pointed out and others here have too.

There is strife and every mischievous work goes on in such places has hurt many people in more degrees than any realize, even to the point of denying the real deal gifts governed by Godly love. However, because of false babble (tongues) does not mean that the read deal cannot or no longer exist. The real deal learns to repent and live the ways described in 1 Co 13:4, 5, 6, 7... in life and exercise of the gifts God desire to give...governed by love that:

…suffer long and is kind… does not envy…does not parade itself... not puffed up … does not behave rudely … does not seek its own … is not provoked … thinks no evil … does not rejoice in iniquity… rejoices in the truth … bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

In this, we learn to be able to tell the difference between the false and the real...

Know them by their fruits...
-
-
-

Well said B.W.

Thank you Neo,

We must not toss out the baby with the bath water. There is also a lot of doctrines that stain God's grace too and false teachers who twist bible verses. In no way do we expunge grace or the bible because of of all misguided antics.

The other day, I was dealing with someone hurt by a 'works needed to add to grace in order to keep one saved.' They were in turmoil over this. Helped as I could. Just because of bad teaching, we should not toss out Ephesian 2:10 but keep it in context along with Eph 2:8, 9 and help folks understand grace. There are many examples of this kind of thing and because of all the wacky stuff out there that stumbles folks, we do not toss out the bible.
-
-
-

I've been away for about a week ... preparing a more thorough coverage of what Scripture has to say on this topic. My thinking is that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing with a certain amount of care, Consequently, I haven't read in this thread for almost a week. If any of what follows duplicates something some one already said - perhaps better and more clearly - I apologize. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes. I'm going to post what I've written so far (I'm only 65%-70% done) in several posts, to make responding to particular ideas less cumbersome. Onward and upward ...

I've already done this to some degree, but I'm going to set out, first, some terms of reference: how I will use Scripture; what I will endeavor to show from Scripture; things I am not saying.

Taking the last item first, I will neither claim all instances of purported speaking in tongues or prophecy are genuine, nor proper usage thereof. I do not and cannot know every speaker nor be there to witness everything every speaker does. So making such a claim would be silly, defying common sense. Making the reverse claim – that no instances of purported speaking in tongues or prophecy are genuine and proper usage – would be equally silly for the same reasons, IF there is a Scriptural basis for such activities.

That ”IF” leads me to what I will be endeavoring to show – and not show – from Scripture. Much of what will follow will be quotes from Scripture – not a few, and not out-of-context snippets. First, I will show that speaking in tongues and prophecy happened in the church, and these were: part of “normal” for the church; useful in the life of the church; gifts from God. I will not, however, claim that these things were a central focus for the church. That would be silly. I view speaking in tongues, prophecy, and the other gifts of the Holy Spirit as tools. A contractor's focus is not on the coolness of his/her tools – saw, hammer, drill, trowel, air compressor – but on what (s)he makes with those tools. In the same way, the church's focus was and should be on the needs served by the gifts of the Spirit in the greater context of the purpose of the church, not on the gifts themselves.

Finally – and foundationally – I will use Scripture as authoritative. Scripture is not exhaustively complete: it does not instruct Peter to be an electronics technician and Steven to be a pastor; Scripture usually speaks to and at a general level. Where Scripture so speaks, it sets a standard. More practically, if I have a problem with something Scripture says (or seems to), the problem is me. I may misunderstand what is said, or the context or people addressed. But if I do understand a Scripture properly and ignore it because it seems weird to me, I am dismissing instruction from God. Not a good idea. In using Scripture, I will focus on the clear and plain meaning of a text; if I express interpretive opinion that goes beyond the meaning of a text, I will specify that I am doing so.

As I move on to quoting and indicating the significance of Scripture passages having to do with this topic, I want to note that I will not be citing the second half of Mark chapter 16. Its genuineness is disputed: I don't wish this thread to veer off into the Textus Receptus vs. Westcott & Hort ditch; as will be seen, scriptures pertaining to this topic are plentiful and clear. Finally, unless noted otherwise, the translation I will be using is the New American Standard Version. I've used it for many years, but, more importantly, it's fairly literal, not idiosyncratic, and doesn't mix commentary into its text. No translation can be perfect, but the NASV is among the best modern English translations.

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. 5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs - we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God." ... 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; 18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.

This is from the account of the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given to believers. Verse 1 states that the believers were all together. Sunday School lesson illustrations I've seen depict this gathering as just Jesus' surviving eleven disciples, possibly with Matthias, who had been chosen (in Acts 1) to replace Judas. Acts 1:15, however, indicates that a gathering of “all” the believers would have been some 120. Verse 4 indicates that these believers' speaking in tongues was the result of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit gave them the words they spoke. Verses 7-11 are also interesting; there may have been as many as 14 languages represented among the hearers, and possibly more. 120 people speaking, some 14 languages heard … it is possible that the believers were speaking in perfect unison, or that particular believers, by the action of the Holy Spirit, spoke the language of the person(s) near them. Personally, given the din of 120 persons speaking at once and how the hundreds or thousands of persons from various regions might have been scattered among the thousands in the crowd, my opinion is that various people hearing their native languages was a miracle in addition to that of the believers speaking in tongues.

Acts 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. ...

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren , what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Verse 32 reiterates the fact that what the onlookers heard – the speaking in tongues – was due to Jesus having given the Holy Spirit to His followers. The source of the speaking in tongues was God; that Peter felt it necessary to repeat this indicates that the hearers thought the speaking in tongues “weird” (some hearers sneered that the believers were drunk). Verse 39 gives the “limit” God placed on this gift – the Holy Spirit, as verse 38 states – all believers, wherever, for all time.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Acts 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

This is from the account of Peter speaking the Gospel to the Roman centurion, Cornelius and his family. Peter stated it, twice, the other believers present recognized it, and the author of the book of Acts, Luke, stated it: the Holy Spirit had been given to these new believers, as recognized by their speaking in tongues. That the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to believers did not surprise the believers who had come with Peter, but that these recipients were Gentiles. This indicates they regarded believers receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as normal.

Acts 11:27 Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. 29 And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea.

Acts 13:1 Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

These passages show two ways in which prophecy served the church at Antioch. Knowing of the upcoming famine in advance, the churches were able to prepare to relieve those in need. The latter passage is the initial calling of Saul (Paul) to be an Apostle, along with Barnabas.

Acts 8:4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. 5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. 6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. ... 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. ... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

These passages, plus the account, quoted above, in Acts 10, topple some neat, tidy, God-in-a-box schemes. In these several passages, becoming a believer, being baptized in water and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (being baptized in the Holy Spirit) are shown to be individual, separable, events/experiences, happening in no particular order other than becoming a believer being first. In Acts 10, Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit first and then were baptized in water; in Acts 8 and 19, the believers in Samaria and Ephesus were baptized in water first and afterwards received the gift of the Holy Spirit. In Samaria, while the passage does not state exactly how long, the distance from Jerusalem to Samaria dictate that a day or more separated the Samaritans becoming believers and being baptized from their receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll leave the spiritual “physiology” and “physics” of it to God, but these passages make clear that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that every believer has is something different from having the gift of the Holy Spirit. Speaking of neat and tidy God boxes, Part 1 … some Pentecostals teach that if some one does not speak in tongues they are not saved. The Acts 8 and Acts 19 accounts contradict this teaching; the Samaritans and Ephesians are clearly identified as being believers prior to their receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (and speaking in tongues). Speaking of neat and tidy God boxes, Part 2 … traditional Pentecostals teach that speaking in tongues is the evidence one has received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I believe these passages demonstrate that this teaching goes farther than Scripture does. Acts 8 makes clear that it was apparent to others when the Samaritan believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit, but does not mention what made it apparent. As for the believers in Ephesus, one very reasonable understanding. Of Acts 19 is that some were speaking in tongues, while others were prophesying – in other words, two “evidences”. While the incident in Ephesus was of sufficient import for Luke to recount (consider, how many hundreds or thousands of times might Paul have seen people become believers, be baptized in water, and/or receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Incidents not recounted in the book of Acts?), I do not see the event of the Ephesian believers receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit being perceived by Paul and those accompanying him as unusual. To the contrary, the flow of Paul's actions show that he was simply bringing these believers into a more complete Christian faith and experience, of which receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit was a normal part.

Acts 21:3 When we came in sight of Cyprus, leaving it on the left, we kept sailing to Syria and landed at Tyre; for there the ship was to unload its cargo. 4 After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem. ... 8 On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. 10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" 12 When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem.

These two passages, again show an aspect of “normal” in the church of the New Testament. It has been speculated whether God was trying to deflect Paul from his plans – which would lead to years of imprisonment – or was letting Paul know in advance where Paul was being led by God. I'll leave that speculation for other people and times. What is relevant here is that prophecy was a normal and valuable part of the over-all life of the church. Further, one of the arguments Cessationists advance is that speaking in tongues and prophecy are “revelatory gifts” and, with the completion of the New Testament, there is no need for further revelation and hence no need for “revelatory gifts”. The New Testament does make this distinction between “revelatory gifts” and “non-revelatory gifts”. “Revelatory” can be a useful adjective in describing some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (e.g. in a teaching context), but Cessationists (some, at least) have crafted a doctrine from this adjective. That problem aside, there is a further problem with the argument. It assumes that prophecy was used to reveal Scripture. While that was partly (but far from entirely) true of Old Testament prophets, the book of Revelation is the only book in the New Testament that is a prophetic revelation. These passages, together with Acts 11, identify a prophet, Agabus, and mention four others, the daughters of Philip the evangelist; Acts 13 vaguely mentions others, but without identifying them. For Agabus, Acts mentions but two instances of what I believe should have been a much more extensive ministry for him to be called a prophet. I suppose my opinion is open to quibble (not reasonably, I think), but the New Testament identifies Philip's daughters as prophets, but not a word of their prophecies has been recorded – not by direct quote (ala Acts 21:11), not by indirect quote (ala Acts 11:28). My opinion is that if prophecy functioned in the New Testament era church to reveal Scripture, the New Testament would have a book of Agabus and another book recording the prophecies of the daughters of Philip. So, not only is this “revelatory gifts” argument based on a distinction Scripture does not make, its premise – that New Testament prophecy revealed Scripture – is largely false.

As a sort of introductory note before moving on to passages from the Epistles, one of the arguments used by some who dismiss Pentecostal-charismatic teaching is that they ”just” “have” the books of Acts and 1 Corinthians. The “reasoning” behind this dismissal is: Acts speaks of the earliest days of the church, when things were just getting started and thus things done were not necessarily intended to be the long-term norm for the church; 1 Corinthians was addressed to a church that was a mess, and things the Corinthians did should not be regarded as anything like normal. While it is correct that the book of Acts is about the earliest beginnings of the ~2,000 year history of Christianity, there is no explicit Scriptural basis for Cessationists' dismissal. There is no express statement to the effect that the book of Acts was a never-to-be-repeated transitional period. To the contrary, it can be seen in several of Paul's Epistles that these gifts were part of the life of the church throughout New Testament times. As for 1 Corinthians, that letter is indeed an example – not the only such – of Paul writing to correct serious problems in a church. While obviously, it would be a mistake to emulate the problems and errors of the churches in Corinth or Colossae, Paul's corrective teaching should be accepted as worth applying today (is is done with the books of Galatians or Colossians); that would, of course, include the large portions of 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 Cessationists want to ignore or relegate to an irrelevant past. As for the idea that Pentecostals and charismatics ”just” “have” the books of Acts and 1 Corinthians, well …

Romans 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit ; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. ... 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

In these four passages of Scripture – only two in 1 Corinthians 12 – Paul lists spiritual gifts (abilities and people who minister using those gifts). As can be seen from the four passages above, none of the lists is comprehensive. There are gifts common to more than one list, and there are gifts unique to a particular list. Giving and Serving are unique to Romans 12; healing and miracles are unique to 1 Corinthians 12. Teaching (Teacher) is mentioned in the Romans, Ephesians and one of the 1 Corinthians lists; Prophecy (Prophet) is on all four lists. Paul wasn't writing a Systematic Theology textbook chapter about spiritual gifts, but illustrating points he was making. One important thing worth noting is that obviously supernatural gifts – e.g. Prophecy, Speaking in Tongues, Healing – are, in all three passages, mixed with less obviously supernatural gifts (e.g. Teaching, Evangelism, Giving). Scripture does not segregate or differentiate between obviously and less obviously supernatural(or “revelatory” and “non-revelatory”) spiritual gifts; spiritual gifts are all supernatural, all are given by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. ... 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

As mentioned above, the church at Corinth was a mess, having all kinds of problems. At the core of many of the problems was selfish disunity; one of the manifestations of this was the prideful, self-exalting manner in which certain spiritual gifts were used, especially speaking in tongues. In chapter 13, with unaccustomed brevity, Paul dug down to and both exposed the reason for their disunity and revealed its cure: the Corinthians' need for self-sacrificing love. Love – this particular kind of love – needed to motivate (i.e. from their hearts outward to their hands, feet and lips) the Corinthians' fellowship, their faithfulness in the face of persecution, their charitable giving, and their use of spiritual gifts. While it is true that a large part of 1 Corinthians is devoted to discussing spiritual gifts, Paul put the gifts into their proper place in the broader context of the life of the church and of believers by placing this chapter about self-sacrificing love right in the middle of the discussion of the gifts – spiritual gifts are important, but not central to the Christian life and faith.

Verses 8-12 show where Cessationists are correct, and where they are incorrect. Faith, hope and love are enduring, will last into eternity; spiritual gifts will cease (you know, Cessationist). The question is, when. Verses 10-12 answer this clearly: the gifts of the Spirit will cease when they are no longer necessary, when Jesus' return makes spiritual gifts unnecessary.

PeteSinCA wrote:

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. ... 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

As mentioned above, the church at Corinth was a mess, having all kinds of problems. At the core of many of the problems was selfish disunity; one of the manifestations of this was the prideful, self-exalting manner in which certain spiritual gifts were used, especially speaking in tongues. In chapter 13, with unaccustomed brevity, Paul dug down to and both exposed the reason for their disunity and revealed its cure: the Corinthians' need for self-sacrificing love. Love – this particular kind of love – needed to motivate (i.e. from their hearts outward to their hands, feet and lips) the Corinthians' fellowship, their faithfulness in the face of persecution, their charitable giving, and their use of spiritual gifts. While it is true that a large part of 1 Corinthians is devoted to discussing spiritual gifts, Paul put the gifts into their proper place in the broader context of the life of the church and of believers by placing this chapter about self-sacrificing love right in the middle of the discussion of the gifts – spiritual gifts are important, but not central to the Christian life and faith.

Verses 8-12 show where Cessationists are correct, and where they are incorrect. Faith, hope and love are enduring, will last into eternity; spiritual gifts will cease (you know, Cessationist). The question is, when. Verses 10-12 answer this clearly: the gifts of the Spirit will cease when they are no longer necessary, when Jesus' return makes spiritual gifts unnecessary.

This is a very good study Pete and if it is okay, could I use these to help some folks I know on this this matter? I would add these verses to the last part of post regarding when they end:

Rev 21:6, Rev 22:12, 13, Rev 1:17,18
-
-
-

Thanks, B. W., and if you think some one could be edified, by all means, do (and what I'm about to post as well). I'll have a look at those passages and how they fit. I've had a quite narrow focus in my posts above and in what follows, kind of like a 50- or 100-piece figure in a 2000-piece jigsaw puzzle, so a look at the whole picture sounds good. John 16 seems an excellent part for a big-picture post.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. ... 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. 13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is the outcome then ? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen " at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. 18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. … 39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

1 Corinthians 14 is kind of a nuts-and-bolts, here's-how-you-do-it chapter. It's also the epitome of Paul's shaggy writing style – covering lots of ground, winding here and there, briefly tossing in multiple miscellaneous ideas. Paul mixed some detailed teaching about the purposes and usages of two (actually, three) spiritual gifts with some general information about what churches did when they assembled (hint … if you read 1 Corinthians 14 expecting some sort of proto-liturgy, you'll be disappointed and/or puzzled). What emerges from this passage and passages such as Ephesian 5:18-19, Colossians 3:16 and Hebrews 10:24-25 are several common elements: honoring God with thanks and praise; encouraging and building up God's people; all of God's people contributing to these goals; the Holy Spirit being a sort of Producer-Director-Playwright, writing, and directing a sort of drama in which all the assembled believers are at once audience and actors.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Hebrews 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

When, in 1 Corinthians 12, Paul taught that every believer is an essential part of the Body of Christ, he wasn't spouting a beautiful-sounding, hollow platitude. He was describing how the Body of Christ was and is meant to function. Everyone contributing; everyone receiving.

Back to 1 Corinthians 14, verses 18-19 and verse 28 hint at a private and personal usage for speaking in tongues. Paul's focus in this chapter, however, is what is done in assemblies of believers. Basically, in verse 11 Paul gives what amounts to an equation: (Speaking in Tongues) + (Interpretation) = Prophecy. So, then, what is the purpose of Prophecy (and, therefore, of a message in Tongues plus Interpretation)? Verse 3 gives the answer: edification (build up other believers); exhortation (urge fellow believers to action); consolation (comfort and encouragement during troubling times). Giving power and authority to these purposes is the fact that prophetic messages - if genuine - are from God. For this reason, Paul attached particular importance in this chapter to prophecy. It should be pointed out – this being a common misunderstanding (plus or minus a bit of Cessationist agenda) – that prophecy is not skillful or "inspired" teaching or preaching - teaching is another, distinct, spiritual gift. A comparison of Acts 13:1 and 2 Timothy 1:11 suggests that one of Paul's gifts – before and after being called to be an apostle – was teaching. So he would have known and lived this difference first-hand.