Evidence for God from Science

Daniel wrote:
I think people just want to celebrate the good he has done for this world and forgive him for the bad, remember forgive is to forget.

Daniel,

How many people do you think know any of the bad about Mandela? Tbh, all I really knew was that he was famous for his fight against apartheid. I admit that I didn't study his life, but I've never heard anything bad about him from the media. I don't think it's a case of people overlooking the bad to celebrate the good. I could be wrong, but I believe it's a case of celebrating the good, because people don't know the bad. I bet the normal, everyday person has no idea about the bad stuff this guy was involved with.

I for one, will not praise a man who unapologetically promoted the wholesale murder of unborn humans. Ending apartheid, as noble of a cause that is, doesn't make up for murder.

RickD wrote:

Daniel wrote:
I think people just want to celebrate the good he has done for this world and forgive him for the bad, remember forgive is to forget.

Daniel,

How many people do you think know any of the bad about Mandela? Tbh, all I really knew was that he was famous for his fight against apartheid. I admit that I didn't study his life, but I've never heard anything bad about him from the media. I don't think it's a case of people overlooking the bad to celebrate the good. I could be wrong, but I believe it's a case of celebrating the good, because people don't know the bad. I bet the normal, everyday person has no idea about the bad stuff this guy was involved with.

I for one, will not praise a man who unapologetically promoted the wholesale murder of unborn humans. Ending apartheid, as noble of a cause that is, doesn't make up for murder.

Well to honestly answer your question, I think most people I know actually know his past pretty well. It in fact it was bought up at church last Sunday as an example of having to tear down a system to rebuild another and not always being perfect about it.

I for one, will not praise a man who unapologetically promoted the wholesale murder of unborn humans.

You presume to know the mans heart and judged him according to your limited knowledge about him, what makes his sins any worse than yours, I am sure you would have some sins that you have been unapologetic for, I sure know I still probably have some. Just because a person may have got something wrong does not make them inherently bad and worthless.

Daniel wrote:
Well to honestly answer your question, I think most people I know actually know his past pretty well. It in fact it was bought up at church last Sunday as an example of having to tear down a system to rebuild another and not always being perfect about it.

Maybe it's different down under.

Daniel wrote:
You presume to know the mans heart and judged him according to your limited knowledge about him, what makes his sins any worse than yours, I am sure you would have some sins that you have been unapologetic for, I sure know I still probably have some. Just because a person may have got something wrong does not make them inherently bad and worthless.

What? Where did that come from? I'm not judging his heart(whatever that means). And I'm certainly not saying I'm less sinful than he is. And I never called him or anyone "inherently bad or worthless".

I think you need to reread my statement.

The man is being hailed as some kind of god. He's not. Nobody is.

I didn't know his past, and I didn't know his present and how he governed and turned a blind eye to racism.

I didn't know he supported violence as a means to an end just as much as peace (in Mandela's own words, although he was portrayed as a Ghandi who overturned apartheid in his country only via peaceful means).

I didn't know that he was communist and even wrote a detailed book on it -- was a communist terrorist and considered anti-US which much the reason for his arrest.

I didn't know he was part of a terrorist group who bombed innocent women and children and still affiliated with them.

I didn't know he supported so many immoral policies including killing unborn babies at all stages of life.

I didn't know that Mandela still supported movements that are clearly hateful towards white South Africans (imagine a white person singing "I pledge to kill all niggers" and a white US president standing in front with his fist raised).

I didn't know about his self pride and love of being portrayed as he was in the media.

I didn't know he rubbed shoulders with many dictators around the world and even sent them tributes.

I really just didn't know a whole lot about the guy, except the Saint-like status he had in the West -- that he was like another Ghandi or a Dalai Lama only different.

If we can still know things about Christ, then we sure can know a bit about a guy who died in our generation.

Forget everything I posted. I didn't really know much about the guy and was much like you when my wife mentioned some passing words. Then I researched. And that is when I saw the side rarely presented.

But just do some open research yourself. I'm not, Rick's not, tell you to hate the guy, or judge him any more unfairly than Mother Teresa, Hitler or more recently CS Lewis. Just do some research and be a bit more informed. Because being Aussie, I know you would have received the same stories I did and a very positive saint-like image of Mandela.

And I don't want this to be a pay out on Mandela thread... but just an eye opener to the real Mandela -- both good and bad.

Cheers.

RickD wrote:What? Where did that come from? I'm not judging his heart(whatever that means).

You said he was not apologetic, how do you know?

How do you know when he has gone to meet God he hasn't fallen to his knees for his crimes begging for forgiveness.

How do you know he wasn't sorry in this life, maybe deep down he regretted any casualties, the point is we just don't know unless we are God.

The man is being hailed as some kind of god. He's not. Nobody is.

I think God is a bit of a stretch, but yes is is praised for the good work he has done and I have no issue with remembering the good about someone who has died.

I'm rather ignorant of much regarding Nelson Mandela & the movement he was spearheading. I was aware there was much bloodshed in this wake and he had been imprisoned for a very long time for attempts to overthrow the powers that be by force. The few, only white, people I know who were living through it seem to think it was worth it along with popular opinion. That violence was part of changing the power structure in SA seems natural to me, the violence used to establish it was beyond belief.

Describing him as a Saint seems odd, I'll leave that to Pope Francis. In my limited knowledge I would say that Nelson Mendela changed the world for the better and this is why people mourn him, flaws and all he changed not only SA but made an impact worldwide.

I think the Specials should get working on a new song:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgcTvoWjZJU[/youtube]

The only reports I've read along the lines of "He was teh AWESOME!!!!" were in tabloids with bikini shots of celebrities who lost/gained weight on either side.

RickD wrote:[Mandela] is being hailed as some kind of god. He's not. Nobody is.

Yeah...that's the problem I have with this Mandela business. Example: I was at a Christmas concert last Saturday and the choir director dedicated 2 songs to Mandela...huh???

I don't understand why the media is milking this Mandela story for all it's worth. It reminds me of the personality cults around the leaders of the USSR back in the day. Or the cult which still exists in Cuba around Fidel Castro.

FL

FL wrote:
Yeah...that's the problem I have with this Mandela business. Example: I was at a Christmas concert last Saturday and the choir director dedicated 2 songs to Mandela...huh???

FL, don't you know, Mandela is the reason for the season?

FL wrote:
I don't understand why the media is milking this Mandela story for all it's worth. It reminds me of the personality cults around the leaders of the USSR back in the day. Or the cult which still exists in Cuba around Fidel Castro.

What's that old saying? Communists of a feather flock together...

I've got an idea.

Since it is December, and many prefer a different meaning to Christmas than the one Christian's celebrate with Christ's birth...

How about we instead celebrate ChristMan?? Get the best of both worlds.

Sorry, lame, I know...

Kurieuo wrote:I've got an idea.

Since it is December, and many prefer a different meaning to Christmas than the one Christian's celebrate with Christ's birth...

How about we instead celebrate ChristMan?? Get the best of both worlds.

Sorry, lame, I know...

And you were doing so well...

You guys are a bunch of loonies, always thinking the worst of everyone and that commie satan is hiding around every corner just waiting to jump out.

Hey Rick... tread careful... I think skippy might be a commie satan... he's just waiting to jump out on us, err... hop?!

I'm hopping lightly through the field of crazy fundies.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:You guys are a bunch of loonies, always thinking the worst of everyone and that commie satan is hiding around every corner just waiting to jump out.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck....it must be Donald Duck the commie satan. Dan was or was not, Nelson Mandela one who promoted communism?

If you want to put the guy on a pedestal, feel free. But I ain't playin that game. While you're at it, why don't we honor Hitler too. You know, because he did revive the German economy after WWI.

Kurieuo wrote:Hey Rick... tread careful... I think skippy might be a commie satan... he's just waiting to jump out on us, err... hop?!

Is skippy the kommie kangaroo in Dan's avatar? See, that's how commies get you hooked. They look all cute and marsupial-like. Then "WHAMMO", they hit you with the kommie kangaroo kick.