Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote:The question is not of equal choice. People have that. I know plenty of people who are Christians in Pakistan but appear Muslim in society so there lives are not in danger. There was a time when being a Christian was punishable by death, in various places around the globe, still is. If someone feels it is the right thing to do then for them it's the right thing to do. Social oppression is present all the around the world. There are minorities still present. you are arguing for a fairytale, in real word, unfair people exist and they make sure that they ruin it for everyone else. You gotta do the best with what you have.

Now is it dangerous? Of course it is, but that's how it is.

That being said, I find it really hard to imagine your question. Even Saudi Arabia has Christians. They don't have churches in mecca and Medina. But there are Bibles there, the same is in iran, but iran has churches. Is it hard for Christians over there? Yeah it is.

And yes I get your concern. Your question basically is, What if someone never heard of Christianity. What if they never had a chance?

To be honest, I have thought about it a lot in the past and I really don't know how will it happen but since god is just, I believe those people should have a choice, a second chance so to say. How that process happens? I have no idea, but god can't be unjust. So I trust this.

Thank-you for answering my question

K

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

Ofcourse kenny; the main concern to me is, is the choice worth making? That is how I see it.

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

But even if they had less choice, what is the issue you have with that?

If God pursues us, why do so many people who look for God find Allah, Vinishu, or whatever God is popular where they live? Why are they finding fake Gods instead of the real one?

Because people follow the social norms of their culture, I don't see what so strange about that. People have the freewill to pursue whatever they want, whether it be God's will or not.

neo-x wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

Ofcourse kenny; the main concern to me is, is the choice worth making? That is how I see it.

I guess it all depends upon who is making the choices. If everything I know about God points to Vinishu, I would see no reason to go looking anywhere else.
Would you?
K

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

But even if they had less choice, what is the issue you have with that?

If God pursues us, why do so many people who look for God find Allah, Vinishu, or whatever God is popular where they live? Why are they finding fake Gods instead of the real one?

Because people follow the social norms of their culture, I don't see what so strange about that. People have the freewill to pursue whatever they want, whether it be God's will or not.

It just seems to me; if I were the real God I would make my existence more obvious to mankind than all the fake Gods.

Kenny wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

Ofcourse kenny; the main concern to me is, is the choice worth making? That is how I see it.

I guess it all depends upon who is making the choices. If everything I know about God points to Vinishu, I would see no reason to go looking anywhere else.
Would you?
K

I agree. Many do just that. However it also depends on how the choice is made. I suspect that if pursued correctly the god of Abrahamic faith sounds more plausible then vishnu. That may seem irrelevant to the atheist but within theism, its possible to come to that conclusion.

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Even if the access wasn't the same what point are you trying to make, stop beating around the bush and make it.

That some people have more choice than others

K

But even if they had less choice, what is the issue you have with that?

If God pursues us, why do so many people who look for God find Allah, Vinishu, or whatever God is popular where they live? Why are they finding fake Gods instead of the real one?

Because people follow the social norms of their culture, I don't see what so strange about that. People have the freewill to pursue whatever they want, whether it be God's will or not.

It just seems to me; if I were the real God I would make my existence more obvious to mankind than all the fake Gods.

I think his existence is obvious, I looked at nature and all I see is design which leads me to believe there must be a designer.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Psalm 19:1-6

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

It is pretty clear that he has made himself known since the beginning of creation.

I think the fact that man has this nature to seek God out through religion is a clue to his existence, mans has this restlessness within his heart that was placed there by God, a hole that needs to be filled by him, that only he can satisfy.

Ecclesiastes 3:11

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

The fact that there are many religion trying to get in touch with the divine is testament to this restlessness within ourselves.

I think God has made himself obvious many times in many cultures, but he also gave us a gift of love and what is love if it is not given freely, he respects our right to choose, so instead of raping our minds and forcing us to worship him, he gently guides us towards truth.

Lets not forget also that in the beginning man walked close with God and had a real relationship with him, man is now separated from God because of the fall and now is reconciled through Christ Jesus.

Dan

Danieltwotwenty:
I think his existence is obvious, I looked at nature and all I see is design which leads me to believe there must be a designer.

Ken:
How about those who look at nature and see a different God as designer?

Danieltwotwenty:
It is pretty clear that he has made himself known since the beginning of creation.

I think the fact that man has this nature to seek God out through religion is a clue to his existence, mans has this restlessness within his heart that was placed there by God, a hole that needs to be filled by him, that only he can satisfy.

Ken:
How about those seek and find a different God and have their holes filled by what you would consider a non existent God?

Danieltwotwenty:
The fact that there are many religion trying to get in touch with the divine is testament to this restlessness within ourselves.

I think God has made himself obvious many times in many cultures, but he also gave us a gift of love and what is love if it is not given freely, he respects our right to choose, so instead of raping our minds and forcing us to worship him, he gently guides us towards truth.

Ken:
But when you consider the vast majority of humans are gently guided to a different religion aka a different truth, don’t cha think it would be better to have your mind raped (as you call it) and be forced to worship the correct God for only a few earth years (compared to eternity) especially when you consider what is at stake? I know I would!

Danieltwotwenty:
Let’s not forget also that in the beginning man walked close with God and had a real relationship with him, man is now separated from God because of the fall and now is reconciled through Christ Jesus.

Ken:
How come God couldn’t just forgive him and renew the relationship as before without getting somebody else involved?

Kenny wrote:How about those who look at nature and see a different God as designer?

What different designer? Just because you say a different name does not mean it is a different God. I believe the American Indians worshiped God, they called it the great spirit in the sky, their ideas however about this great spirit may have differed slightly. I don't think it is as black and white as you seem to be making it to be, there are many shades of gray, there are many unknowns.

How about those seek and find a different God and have their holes filled by what you would consider a non existent God?

Depends on what you mean by different God, I believe there is truth in all religions and they are not necessarily worshiping a different God, most times it is their understanding/view of God that might be different. It is more of a question, which view of God holds more truth than the others.

But when you consider the vast majority of humans are gently guided to a different religion aka a different truth, don’t cha think it would be better to have your mind raped (as you call it) and be forced to worship the correct God for only a few earth years (compared to eternity) especially when you consider what is at stake? I know I would!

Absolutely not, I would rather choose truth than be forced truth, I would rather live and die than be a mindless robot programmed to think and act in a certain way (might as well be dead). Your argument seems to rest on the premise that people who don't know about Jesus don't go to God when they die, this is a flawed premise as I believe that everyone with a heart for God, regardless of their knowledge, will be reconciled back to God, only those that have an unrepentant heart and who desire not wanting to be with God will be cast out according to their wishes.

God came to this world in the form of Jesus, he came to save it not condemn it, we all have our chance to accept God at some point. I trust that God is just and he won't let anyone go that desires him.

How come God couldn’t just forgive him and renew the relationship as before without getting somebody else involved?

Who is this somebody else? God is the author from beginning to end.

Danieltwotwenty What different designer? Just because you say a different name does not mean it is a different God. I believe the American Indians worshiped God, they called it the great spirit in the sky, their ideas however about this great spirit may have differed slightly. I don't think it is as black and white as you seem to be making it to be, there are many shades of gray, there are many unknowns.[

Ken The Great spirit in the sky didn't have a son. Does that make a difference?

Danieltwotwenty”]Depends on what you mean by different God, I believe there is truth in all religions and they are not necessarily worshiping a different God, most times it is their understanding/view of God that might be different. It is more of a question, which view of God holds more truth than the others.
Ken Do you believe there is enough truth in Hinduism to keep them out of Hell?

Danieltwotwenty” Absolutely not, I would rather choose truth than be forced truth, I would rather live and die than be a mindless robot programmed to think and act in a certain way (might as well be dead). Your argument seems to rest on the premise that people who don't know about Jesus don't go to God when they die, this is a flawed premise as I believe that everyone with a heart for God, regardless of their knowledge, will be reconciled back to God, only those that have an unrepentant heart and who desire not wanting to be with God will be cast out according to their wishes.

God came to this world in the form of Jesus, he came to save it not condemn it, we all have our chance to accept God at some point. I trust that God is just and he won't let anyone go that desires him.

Ken So you believe those of another religion, or maybe even no religion at all would have the option of choosing the correct God upon recieving proof after death? Or am I misunderstanding you.

Danieltwotwenty”] Who is this somebody else? God is the author from beginning to end.

Ken I was refering to Jesus.

Kenny wrote:The Great spirit in the sky didn't have a son. Does that make a difference?

I don't think it's as you say not having a son, I see it as that the native Americans hadn't received the news yet.

So you believe those of another religion, or maybe even no religion at all would have the option of choosing the correct God upon receiving proof after death? Or am I misunderstanding you.

That I do not know, I am happy to say that I don't have all the answers, I trust that God has given everyone equal opportunity for a relationship with him, I also trust that he will judge rightly when the time comes.

I was referring to Jesus.

I believe that Jesus is God, so the point is kind of mute.

To answer the question, is there a god?
Yes, but it only exists in believers minds.
God is imaginary, if anyone can demonstrate god existing outside of their mind I'd like to see/hear it.

To answer the question, is there a god?
Yes, but it only exists in believers minds.
God is imaginary, if anyone can demonstrate god existing outside of their mind I'd like to see/hear it.

Stardust wrote:To answer the question, is there a god?
Yes, but it only exists in believers minds.
God is imaginary, if anyone can demonstrate god existing outside of their mind I'd like to see/hear it.

First you'd have to prove you have a mind.