Evidence for God from Science

Oldman you are a Rastafari correct?

Much of your lingo is simply Rastafari speaking from a Rastas in you.

Are you just maybe a mix of Rastafari and christadelphian because both make much ado about God the Father being simply - eternal mind - and as such had his Word (Jesus) within Himself from the beginning... basically all you written here suggest that is your view.

You make much about truth but do you live - actually live by truth and capable of answering truthfully the questions I posed in last frame?

If not, then you do not hold, nor have the truth you claim to have, not the love of the truth because you can't tell the truth. All is simply Rastafari mumbo jumbo about love, truth, and the spirit (rasta) of truth, but you cannot tell the truth about yourself, nor answer truthfully actual questions truthfully. Odd for someoneto do who claims they live by truth and love? So far, the truth you have is simple deception. How do I know, you cannot answer truthfully the questions I ask you, one at a time, and in order. You revert instead to Rastafari logic.

Next, Rastafari'ans as well as yourself both make much noise about the rasta of truth and love and declare it is the sacred duty to enlighten all with love and truth of Rasta etc and etc... in fact much of what you write mirrors Rastafarianism with a touch of christadelphianism in it too.

There is no truth in these because they cannot answer truth with actual truth, Instead they blame the hearers for not understanding. This is not truth because it denies the truth concerning blaming others and thus their love is not the love they proclaim to have with rasta... Why - they and you falsely accuse and judge others harshly, which is not consistent with the love or truth claims they and you present. In this manner, they and you close their minds to actual truth.

Here is the evidence and case in point from your own words:

oldman wrote:have told you what see, I cannot make it any clearer to you for the simple reason you cannot acknowledge this...

“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”


...can you?

Do you even know the accusatory tone you are using here that makes your statement in complete contradiction with the truth and love claims you made and claim to live by the same perfect caring, sharing of God's spirit.

You are not willing at all to self sacrifice and stoop so low as to answer simple questions in either a Yes or No fashion or short answer when someone ask you. How, arrogant is that? What truth is in arrogance? You claim to have and live by the rule that values all others with perfect caring/sharing, yet, you do not value answering people's questions so as to help them understand what you are saying. Instead you mock them as ignorant and unenlightened and basically insult many of the folks trying to have an actual truthful dialog with you. That is not perfect caring, or sharing, is it?

In fact, all you have written declares the truth of your hypocrisy and condescending tone about truth and love, perfect caring,and sharing when the real truth is this, you lack truth. love. caring, sharing - evidenced shown how you have no joy nor kindness in your heart demonstrated by your contemptuous and condescending tone that basically mocks all attempts of folks trying to hold a discussion intelligently. Complete inability to humbly share or care...

Here is a parable: when a you go to another country, you need to know some of the basic home language of that country. If not, folks will not understand you at all. In true humility and love, you will need to learn their lingo in order to communicate effectively. Oldman, no one here understands your language because you do not speak in truth, love, or humility in a manner one can understand. You come across as Rastafarian arrogant and condescending and thus insult people by your complete unwillingness to explain yourself in the common language of normal English speaking folks. Most don't speak Reggie, nor do the majority speak under the influence of cannabis either.

If you really have truth and love, you would learn our lingo and stop being so condescending...and answer the questions I posed for simple clarity so people could understand what you are saying. By not doing so, and answering in a Rasta rambling way, you show utter contempt and thus the love,truth, and perfect caring is well, what - a lie...

Answer the questions in the language the vast majority of people understand for clarity of truth sake...

Can you...?


Questions I asked earlier...

So what I am hearing you say is this: God is a single person who is manifested as Father, and the Father as the Son, and the Father as the Holy Spirit? Yes - No...

The Son’s life began in the mind of the Father - Correct? Yes or No...

So are you saying that the Father represents the deity of Jesus? Yes or No...

And the Holy Spirit represents the Father truth and love? Yes or No...

Let me try to understand what you are trying to convey here. Are you asserting that before time there was only Jesus as the Father mode, or was there just the Father?

Are you stating that the Son was only in the Father’s mind and as such is the Father - a divine thought?

Are you stating that the Holy Spirit is the Father's divine nature and thought that holds his mind together in unity, and, Therefore the Father, is also but one of three modes that come from His same mind?

B. W. wrote:oldman from your response this is what I am hearing, please answer for clarity...

So what I am hearing you say is this: God is a single person who is manifested as Father, and the Father as the Son, and the Father as the Holy Spirit? Yes - No...

The Son’s life began in the mind of the Father - Correct? Yes or No...

So are you saying that the Father represents the deity of Jesus? Yes or No...

And the Holy Spirit represents the Father truth and love? Yes or No...

Let me try to understand what you are trying to convey here. Are you asserting that before time there was only Jesus as the Father mode, or was there just the Father?

Are you stating that the Son was only in the Father’s mind and as such is the Father - a divine thought?

Are you stating that the Holy Spirit is the Father's divine nature and thought that holds his mind together in unity, and, Therefore the Father, is also but one of three modes that come from His same mind?

Please answer these to clarify what you mean...
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For as long as you are ready to deny the Son came from the Father before creation began then so are you also ready to deny the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will then also be ready to deny the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.


If, as others here believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father somewhere in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been revealed to us as “Father” and “Son”.


The 2nd person of the Trinity who was manifested to us in “the man Jesus”, is God.

Through the 2nd person of the Trinity, creation began.

The 2nd person of the Trinity is the Son of the God who is the Father.

Two different persons, “Father” and “Son” but united as one God through the only proven conveyor of truth, all three are God. This God created all things.


whoever refuses to acknowledge this shall remain lost.


“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”

oldman wrote:...For as long as you are ready to deny the Son came from the Father before creation began then so are you also ready to deny the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will then also be ready to deny the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

If, as others here believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father somewhere in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been revealed to us as “Father” and “Son”.

The 2nd person of the Trinity who was manifested to us in “the man Jesus”, is God.

Through the 2nd person of the Trinity, creation began.

The 2nd person of the Trinity is the Son of the God who is the Father.

Two different persons, “Father” and “Son” but united as one God through the only proven conveyor of truth, all three are God. This God created all things.


whoever refuses to acknowledge this shall remain lost.

“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”

Wow you actually answered one question when you stated this: The 2nd person of the Trinity is the Son of the God who is the Father.

From the only question you answered it appears we need to go really - really slow...

So if I am hearing you correctly, The Father's name is Jesus - correct?

Next,

oldman wrote:Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”[/i]

Are you referring to the Holy Spirit here?
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domokunrox wrote:

oldman wrote:


I have told you what see, I cannot make it any clearer to you for the simple reason you cannot acknowledge this...

“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”


...can you?

We're going to go ahead and make this easier for you, Oldman. You've learned absolutely nothing from when you were banned. 


Let me go ahead and make this clear. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. Plain and simple. Nobody else has picked up on this, but only an antichrist would make the statement you bolded. You keep saying over and over this gibberish claiming that its impossible for ANYONE to have a discussion with you until they somehow looked at your gibberish and say "Oh, yes! You describe truth and love perfectly. There is no way you can possibly be wrong or flat out lying to us". It really is quite a childish tactic. You might as well post of picture of a kid with his fingers in his ears going "lalalala, can't hear you". I have quite frankly had enough of it. There are atheist and agnostics on this board who post better then you. Goodbye, Oldman. You won't be here much longer.

We've tested this spirit enough, Mods. There is no truth in his words, and he will not come to the table and reason. He has made it clear since his first post here.

Thank you domokunrox, you have helped me show again to reasoning minds why the Administrators and Moderators still tolerate and welcome your input and influence here. Whoever is not against you is for you.

Please answer the questions Oldman,

The reason we ask is simple - clarification

Why clarification?

Because what is true for you makes no sense to many of us. If you actually walked and lived by the spirit of truth and not judge - then why can't you acknowledge the truth that what you write is unclear in such manner - that it makes no sense. Jesus would not do this, nor would God or his true servants, and are the here is the verses that back this up: John 18:20, Isaiah 45:19, Isaiah 48:16, Acts 26:26, Col 4:6

Truth would clarify... you do not ... you do not write coherently to convey any actual truth...


Next you judge based upon people not understand you and are blaming them for bot being able too - that is disingenuous and not according to truth. We are very patient with you and given you ample grace to explain yourself and still do. Therefore, your judgment of us is off.

Please explain yourself and please answer the questions to clarify what on earth you are actually talking about...
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B. W. wrote:

oldman wrote:...For as long as you are ready to deny the Son came from the Father before creation began then so are you also ready to deny the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will then also be ready to deny the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

If, as others here believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father somewhere in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been revealed to us as “Father” and “Son”.

The 2nd person of the Trinity who was manifested to us in “the man Jesus”, is God.

Through the 2nd person of the Trinity, creation began.

The 2nd person of the Trinity is the Son of the God who is the Father.

Two different persons, “Father” and “Son” but united as one God through the only proven conveyor of truth, all three are God. This God created all things.


whoever refuses to acknowledge this shall remain lost.

“The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”

Wow you actually answered one question when you stated this: The 2nd person of the Trinity is the Son of the God who is the Father.

From the only question you answered it appears we need to go really - really slow...

So if I am hearing you correctly, The Father's name is Jesus - correct?

Next,

oldman wrote:Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”[/i]

Are you referring to the Holy Spirit here?
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-
-

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

B. W. wrote:Are you referring to the Holy Spirit here?

If you can't see by now B.W. there is nothing new I can add to help you see.

If you cannot comprehend and acknowledge the fundamentals of the only proven conveyor of truth by now, then whatever new answers I give you will prove to be a waste of time.

Sorry about that.


“Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son, all who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.”

Oldman, It is not a question about me understanding but rather not accusing you wrongly and that is why the need for you to clarify what you mean because you are not clear in your presentations.

You stated this:

oldman wrote:The 2nd person of the Trinity is the Son of the God who is the Father.

So if I am hearing you correctly, The Father's name is Jesus - correct?

All that requires is a simple yes and no answer. Jesus said - let your yes be yes and No's be no...

So far, you haven't demonstrated this ability.


Next, I asked, are you referring to the Holy Spirit here?

oldman wrote:Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.”[/i]

This is another let your yes be yes and no be No answer - very simple.

You should clarify yourself so people understand you so they will not get the wrong impressions regarding what you say. As it is now, what you say is strictly subjective (taken to mean anything by the hearer -reader) and lacks the Yes be Yes and No be No quality the Truth of Jesus Christ demands.

The truth is, the Lord would not speak in such a subjective manner because subjectivism cannot not based on any objectivism in order to be subjective and thus truth through subjectivism cannot be known. As it is now, you do not make any sense to the readers here and then go on a mock them with a condescending tone as 'dumb' and 'stupid' for not understanding what you mean, well, is also quite telling as well as goes counter to what Christ Jesus taught regarding communication.

Just from the evidence and your tone, cannot you see why folks reading don't have any idea what you are saying and could possibly misunderstand what you are saying? - Yes or No - ?
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B. W.,

I haven't understood what oldman has been saying up until now. So to be fair to him, and hopefully see what he's saying, I went to Colorado, and bought some mowie-wowie. I rolled a fat one, and smoked it. Then I read all of oldman's posts, and wouldn't you guess...they all made perfect sense. The clarity was amazing.

This is such a waste of time really. The man doesn't even see the contradiction in his position. He cannot explain how an eternal being came to be (with good reason, because it violates the law of non-contradiction) so he masks it with a whole lotta mumbo-jumbo about love.

Oldman, the trinity perfectly explains the relationship between the 3 persons in the Godhead and it is that perfect relationship we call pure love so explaining the familial relationship between father and son is not too difficult. But you have a problem my friend and here it is one more time: please explain how an eternal being came to be.

Byblos wrote:This is such a waste of time really. The man doesn't even see the contradiction in his position. He cannot explain how an eternal being came to be (with good reason, because it violates the law of non-contradiction) so he masks it with a whole lotta mumbo-jumbo about love.

Oldman, the trinity perfectly explains the relationship between the 3 persons in the Godhead and it is that perfect relationship we call pure love so explaining the familial relationship between father and son is not too difficult. But you have a problem my friend and here it is one more time: please explain how an eternal being came to be.

Here are some interesting reads.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html

http://bibleencyclopedia.com/eternity.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 1447/posts

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/ ... /eternity/

Whatever we decide let us remember...

If, as most others here apparently believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father and Son”.

God has not lied to us and for as long as you keep denying the Son came from the Father in eternity before creation began then so will you also keep denying the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will also then keep denying the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son, all who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

oldman wrote:If, as most others here apparently believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father and Son”.

I'll get to the links soon but in the meantime can you please explain what it means that "the son came from the father in eternity before creation began"? How would you describe that? Was there an instance when the son was not and then he was? or what?

Oldman, I think it would help if you studied carefully the concepts of procession within the Godhead and especially the notion of eternal generation.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1027.htm

Byblos wrote:

oldman wrote:If, as most others here apparently believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father and Son”.

I'll get to the links soon but in the meantime can you please explain what it means that "the son came from the father in eternity before creation began"? How would you describe that? Was there an instance when the son was not and then he was? or what?

The Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity, came from His Father, the 1st person of the Trinity in eternity before creation began. Now, since we are told the Son, the 2nd person, is one with His infinite Father and is the express image of His Father who, as we are also constantly being told, has always existed, then I suppose it can be argued that the Son in one sense has always existed in His Father.

View this how you like but don't alter the meaning of “Father” and “Son” if you care to Honour God's Word.

If the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father” and “Son”.


God has not lied to us and for as long as you or anyone else keep denying the Son came from the Father in eternity before creation began then so will you also keep denying the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will also then keep denying the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son, all who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

Well...that certainly clears things up.

oldman wrote:

Byblos wrote:

oldman wrote:If, as most others here apparently believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father and Son”.

I'll get to the links soon but in the meantime can you please explain what it means that "the son came from the father in eternity before creation began"? How would you describe that? Was there an instance when the son was not and then he was? or what?

The Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity, came from His Father, the 1st person of the Trinity in eternity before creation began. Now, since we are told the Son, the 2nd person, is one with His infinite Father and is the express image of His Father who, as we are also constantly being told, has always existed, then I suppose it can be argued that the Son in one sense has always existed in His Father.

View this how you like but don't alter the meaning of “Father” and “Son” if you care to Honour God's Word.

If the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father” and “Son”.


God has not lied to us and for as long as you or anyone else keep denying the Son came from the Father in eternity before creation began then so will you also keep denying the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will also then keep denying the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son, all who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)