Evidence for God from Science

DRDS wrote:Now I'm offended, because that's MY AGE TOO!

DRDS wrote:Now I'm offended, because that's MY AGE TOO!

Don't worry. 30 is old only if you're a woman.

I can only echo what has been said:
Trust in God, through Our Lord.

neo-x wrote:That is not what I said...I said, no one knows if heaven has more people or not, and it isn't your concern, or mine to contemplate on this, when we really can't do it.

Why on earth would you say that I like a legalistic persona of God?
I don't, and I don't appreciate you declaring that without any proper reason.

As for the rest of your post, I really have no idea how you can connect such opposites. To me it makes no sense. The conclusions you are drawing are so absurd, I really don't know how to address those.

I can only tell you one thing...STOP WORRYING and let God do his job. trust him. He will do what is best.

Oh well, I guess I accidentally mistook you as one of the legalistic believers that are rampant in my local area. They all think God is mean and hateful and that heaven will be almost empty and hell will be stockpiled full and they seem to be very pleased with those assessments. It's strange, it's like they want heaven all to themselves. They want God to give them a big amusement park just for them so they can ride the teacups and just drive themselves to madness with their selfish silver spoon. If i'm there and there are very few people there I don't want my own amusement park, ah, I want my own video game arcade. Full with racing games and all the candy and slush puppies I can consume!

I don't think of heaven as a physical place like the world. I think heaven is just being with God. But I am still looking into it.

DRDS wrote:

neo-x wrote:That is not what I said...I said, no one knows if heaven has more people or not, and it isn't your concern, or mine to contemplate on this, when we really can't do it.

Why on earth would you say that I like a legalistic persona of God?
I don't, and I don't appreciate you declaring that without any proper reason.

As for the rest of your post, I really have no idea how you can connect such opposites. To me it makes no sense. The conclusions you are drawing are so absurd, I really don't know how to address those.

I can only tell you one thing...STOP WORRYING and let God do his job. trust him. He will do what is best.

Oh well, I guess I accidentally mistook you as one of the legalistic believers that are rampant in my local area. They all think God is mean and hateful and that heaven will be almost empty and hell will be stockpiled full and they seem to be very pleased with those assessments. It's strange, it's like they want heaven all to themselves. They want God to give them a big amusement park just for them so they can ride the teacups and just drive themselves to madness with their selfish silver spoon. If i'm there and there are very few people there I don't want my own amusement park, ah, I want my own video game arcade. Full with racing games and all the candy and slush puppies I can consume!

Hey bro, as I told you before in our chats my dad gave me an answer that still has me chuckling.

He said if all of these people who the legalist say are all going to hell , won't it be too much for hell to hold
I love my dad so much . He's such a simple man born from a small mountain farming village
But other then Christ he's my hero.
He also asks why are there so many denominations.
Just love Christ and forget about all that .

I just gave him a huge hug and he laughed,as he warned me not to hug him in public because people might think something else

DRDS wrote:

neo-x wrote:That is not what I said...I said, no one knows if heaven has more people or not, and it isn't your concern, or mine to contemplate on this, when we really can't do it.

Why on earth would you say that I like a legalistic persona of God?
I don't, and I don't appreciate you declaring that without any proper reason.

As for the rest of your post, I really have no idea how you can connect such opposites. To me it makes no sense. The conclusions you are drawing are so absurd, I really don't know how to address those.

I can only tell you one thing...STOP WORRYING and let God do his job. trust him. He will do what is best.

Oh well, I guess I accidentally mistook you as one of the legalistic believers that are rampant in my local area. They all think God is mean and hateful and that heaven will be almost empty and hell will be stockpiled full and they seem to be very pleased with those assessments. It's strange, it's like they want heaven all to themselves. They want God to give them a big amusement park just for them so they can ride the teacups and just drive themselves to madness with their selfish silver spoon. If i'm there and there are very few people there I don't want my own amusement park, ah, I want my own video game arcade. Full with racing games and all the candy and slush puppies I can consume!

A bus pulled up to the Pearly Gates with the newest load of residents. They filed out nervous and excited and were greeted by Saint Peter.

"Welcome to Heaven! We've all been waiting for you, and we're very excited you are here. I know there are lots of people you want to see a lot more than me, but I wanted to give you a brief tour of the facilities first."

Everyone agreed and the tour soon began. Peter showed them the Street of Gold than ran by the Crystal Sea. He showed them the Angelic Training Center (where Divine Choir practiced, of course), and the homes of some of the more famous residents--people like Moses and Abraham and David. The people were all so excited and having so much fun they couldn't tell if the tour had lasted only a minute or an eternity! Finally, Peter finished up. "Well, we could literally continue this forever, but I'll let you find the rest of it yourself. Have a good eternity!"

As he turned to leave, someone shouted, "Wait! Peter! You showed us so much, but that door over there . . . you keep walking by it without saying anything. What's behind it?"

"Yes, yes. Whatever you do, you CANNOT open that door." Peter said sternly. "Adam had his apple, and we have that door."

"Oh," the man said. "Can I at least ask why not?"

Peter looked over his shoulder, and then whispered:

"That's where we keep the Baptists. They think they're the only ones here!"

Hey I kinda resent that, because technically I'm a Baptist! Well, I mainly have a Baptist upbringing. I really consider myself non denominational but technically if I had to choose a denomination on a fill out sheet I guess I would pick Baptist. Hmm, I guess that might be another reason why I'm surrounded by so many self righteous legalists in my area.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. The legalism finally got to be too much for me. Yes, ther are some SBC churches where legalism doesn't run rampant, but in general, it's a part of the culture. I now work in the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

DRDS wrote:Hey I kinda resent that, because technically I'm a Baptist! Well, I mainly have a Baptist upbringing. I really consider myself non denominational but technically if I had to choose a denomination on a fill out sheet I guess I would pick Baptist. Hmm, I guess that might be another reason why I'm surrounded by so many self righteous legalists in my area.

Bro the point is you are not self righteous . You have a great heart and I can see that the Holy Spirit is working within you.
The questions you ask is because you genuinely care for people and want to see all of God's people in heaven.
You are blessed with great compassion and empathy for others . Where do you think you got those graces from
The good lord above

Jac3510 wrote:

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. The legalism finally got to be too much for me. Yes, ther are some SBC churches where legalism doesn't run rampant, but in general, it's a part of the culture. I now work in the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

Christian and Missionary Alliance, I find that interesting that you attend with this branch of Christ body, considering the founder and Tozer's platonic views concerning their style of theosis...compared to your own Thomist brand... of course


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PS For any readers who don't know the style of theosis of AB Simpson and Tozer had is found in John 17 and has more to do with uniting self with God in oneness of His will, love, and purpose...in the balanced manner. Simpson and Tozer both understood the value of 'silent prayer' and the 'still quiet voice of God' gained from such encounters... which in my opinion goes beyond the rationalism of Thomism.

B.W. wrote:Simpson and Tozer both understood the value of 'silent prayer' and the 'still quiet voice of God' gained from such encounters... which in my opinion goes beyond the rationalism of Thomism.

Ah, but it does not, although I can see how people could get that impression. I could have sworn I had quoted this section of Etienne Gilson's book before on this forum, but I can't find it now (I've certainly recommended the book enough). Anyway, this is worth noting:

• That God is infinitely above anything we can think or say about Him, was a universally accepted doctrine in mediaeval theology. St. Thomas Aquinas had made it the very foundation of his doctrine. We do not know what God is, but only what He is not, so that we know Him the better as we more clearly see that He is infinitely different from everything else. This principle, however, can be used in two different ways. We can, with St. Thomas, posit it at the beginning and at the end of our theology; it will then act as both a general qualification applying to all theological statements, and as an invitation to transcend theology, once we are through with it, by entering the depth of the mystical life. Yet between his initial statement that God is, strictly speaking, unknowable, and his ultimate endeavor to experience by love that which surpasses human understanding, St. Thomas Aquinas never forgets, that if we do not know God, the reason is not that God is obscure, but rather that He is blinding light. The whole theology of St. Thomas points to the supreme intelligibility of what lies hidden in the mystery of God. Now, if God is intelligible in Himself, what little we know about Him may be almost nothing, but it is not nothing, and it is infinitely more important than all the rest. In short, even when St. Thomas Aquinas uses reason as a means to a mystical end, he does not use it in a mystical way. Reason is made to throw light everywhere it shines; where darkness becomes invincible, reason gives way to love, and there is the beginning of the mystical life.

Link

As far as the Platonic/Aristotelian stuff goes, you'll have to be more specific, especially with reference to theosis. Neither of them had a particular view on that. Perhaps you have theoria in mind, a word that refers to contemplation. Plato thought we contemplated the Forms to the end that one may gain a better understanding of things in this life, whereas Aristotle believed in contemplation as its own end. But it's hard to say which of those is the "Thomistic" view, considering that Thomas got a lot of his theology from Augustinian who, in turn, was a Platonist.

And beyond all THAT, no one in the C&MA has ever mentioned theosis, theoria, Plato, Aristotle, or Aquinas. Simpson is only mentioned rarely, and even then that was only during my licensing application and exam.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying tht I don't really understand the tension that you are pointing out.

edit:

I found this little piece from a wikipedia article on theoria helpful if you are interested in Thomism as it understands itself:

• Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote that "prayer cannot be reduced to the level of a means to improved understanding". Roman Catholic monk Thomas Merton wrote that the illumination of contemplation is prized much higher than the intellectual capacity of a theologian, with contemplation being "the normal perfection of theology". and contemplation seen as beyond speculative theology. According to Thomas Aquinas the latter can only focus on what God is not, for instance considering God a spirit by removing from our conception anything pertaining to the body, while the mystic, instead of trying to comprehend what God is, is able to intuit it. However, in the West contemplatives are not considered to be necessarily well-equipped for giving a rational exposition and explanation of Christian doctrine, which is the humbler task of the theologian: the experience of contemplatives is often of a more lofty level, beyond the power of human words to express, so that "they have had to resort to metaphors, similes, and symbols to convey the inexpressible."

Just teasing you Jac...

Simpson and Tozer - concept of Theosis was more in line with theoria which provided balance in how became - One'd with God.

This maybe more in line with immediatism rather than strict theosis-ism of the Eastern Orthodox as they spoke and wrote that God is directly knowable and from that, a person can become - one with God in theosis.

Theosis means form the Eastern Orthodox perspective: the understanding that Christians can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that Christians participate in the divine nature just as 2 Peter 1:1-9 speaks of.

Here is a quote form Tozer and below that and one from Irenaeus that helps understand what Tozer and Simpson had that changed their lives dramatically...

But thinking is not enough. Men are made to worship also, to bow down and adore in the presence of the mystery inexpressible. Man’s mind is not the top pea, of his nature. Higher than his mind is his spirit, that something within him which can engage the supernatural, which under the breath of the Spirit can come alive and enter into conscious communion with heaven, can receive the divine nature and hear and feel and see the eneffable wonder that is God … The wise of the world who have not learned to worship are but demi-men, unformed and rudimentary. Their further development awaits the life – giving touch of Christ to wake them to spiritual birth and life eternal. (Tozer: The Set of the Sail

St Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 5, Preface,

"the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through his transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."

Theoria was the means for theosis to happen, however, in the case of Simpson and Tozer they avoided the strictness of asceticism (purification) as the means to begin theosis but rather emphasized sanctifying process of the Holy Spirit as life long event during the journey in mortal life. During this journey God calls out to the saint of God into a deeper worship, or oneness, with God that refreshes, invigorates, and empowers to continue onward.

Pretty much what the bible teaches on this matter and the role of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives. The idea of sainthood of the believer begins the moment one is saved, by grace, not through theosis's asceticism of katharisis - purification and then sainthood as in stages to become one with the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). Tozer did not teach that. He made it plain, you are a saint by the new birth on a journey through life, and during this journey you are called into moments of oneness (contemplation - silent prayer - worship) with God which transform's a Christian by Grace shown by the Holy Spirit. Both Simpson and Tozer would reject formulas and methods or stages in reaching communion with God. Instead, any believer in Christ could enter in, when God calls to the man or woman who cares...

Their teachings, supported by scripture, demonstrate this and therefore is why I mentioned they had their style of theosis (Partakers of the Divine Nature 2 Pet 1:4), which, in my opinion is more theologically sound being based on God's Grace. In other words, theroia without the end result of theosis would be rather strange in my opinion. Both go together.

Thomas Aquinas can be considered a Christian Mystic as he according to his Bridal-mysticism emphasizes that through Jesus Christ and all he did makes it possible to have intimate communication with God for every believer but it comes through stages (of these I will not address here). As I understand Thomas, he could be considered a contemplative more that a rationalist but wrote as a rationalist to share on the contemplative in stages. Again, in my opinion very similar to theosis per a more Roman Catholic bent to it's stages.

So I find it personally amusing, in a good way, that you belong to the Christian Missionary Alliance branch of the body of Christ, Amen...
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Jac wrote: I was born and raised Southern Baptist.

Ditto here - but began attending a series of non-denominational community churches after marriage.

Jac: Yes, there are some SBC churches where legalism doesn't run rampant, but in general, it's a part of the culture.

My experience growing up in a SBC was in no way legalistic. But they don't drink wine or beer - and I do, at least occasionally. And while many Baptists will admit that responsibly drinking wine or beer isn't Scripturally wrong, they mostly imply that the more spiritual and more mature brothers do not imbibe. Guess they would have boycotted the wedding in Cana.

Jac: I now work in the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

I attend and am very active in a wonderful CMA community church - it's an exciting body to be part of!