Evidence for God from Science

This discussion is sounding familiar. Does the church, the human persons therein, have the authority in themselves to heal, work miracles, etc.? Obviously not. However, as 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Peter in Acts 2 (verse 39?, typing in haste and don't have the book of Acts open in a browser tab) made clear, those abilities were given as gifts to members of the Body of Christ, as the Holy Spirit chooses, to as many as would come to faith in Jesus throughout all time.

Should I be glad that I'm not one of the tens or hundreds of thousands who attend a Vineyard Church? And thereby was not broad-broom-painted as a whacko? Seriously! Is this the way to speak of tens or hundreds of thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ one has never met and won't until eternity?!

[Joke] I rebuke thee, thou Spirit of John MacArthur! [/Joke]

WackoPeteSinCa wrote:
Should I be glad that I'm not one of the tens or hundreds of thousands who attend a Vineyard Church? And thereby was not broad-broom-painted as a whacko? Seriously! Is this the way to speak of tens or hundreds of thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ one has never met and won't until eternity?!

Pete,
Could you show me where anyone said that members of a vineyard church are wackos?

I looked back at the thread, and couldn't find anything resembling that.

RickD wrote:

WackoPeteSinCa wrote:
Should I be glad that I'm not one of the tens or hundreds of thousands who attend a Vineyard Church? And thereby was not broad-broom-painted as a whacko? Seriously! Is this the way to speak of tens or hundreds of thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ one has never met and won't until eternity?!

Pete,
Could you show me where anyone said that members of a vineyard church are wackos?

I looked back at the thread, and couldn't find anything resembling that.

"Whackos" was my choice of words, but the second post in this thread clearly broad-brushes Vineyard Church people, and uses guilt by association "reasoning". And not respectfully. Unity among Christians is a serious matter and its genuine meaning is shown in how we work with and speak of each other. I don't think we're on the same page, Rick.

PeteSinCA wrote:

RickD wrote:

WackoPeteSinCa wrote:
Should I be glad that I'm not one of the tens or hundreds of thousands who attend a Vineyard Church? And thereby was not broad-broom-painted as a whacko? Seriously! Is this the way to speak of tens or hundreds of thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ one has never met and won't until eternity?!

Pete,
Could you show me where anyone said that members of a vineyard church are wackos?

I looked back at the thread, and couldn't find anything resembling that.

"Whackos" was my choice of words, but the second post in this thread clearly broad-brushes Vineyard Church people, and uses guilt by association "reasoning". And not respectfully. Unity among Christians is a serious matter and its genuine meaning is shown in how we work with and speak of each other. I don't think we're on the same page, Rick.

Yikes! Talk about misreading someone! I wrote:

Bad news! He pastors a vineyard church. Among other problems, vineyard churches are associated with the Toronto blessing. He's into false signs and wonders. A huge deception in the church.

My advice...pray for discernment. And stay far away from this false teacher.

I mentioned one man, not every member of vineyard churches. The man is a pastor who should know better. He's a leader and a teacher. Even so, I didn't even insinuate he is a wacko!

Did you ever look up kundalini spirit on YouTube? It's eye opening to say the least.

Well,

It seems like PeteSinCa left shortly after his last post here. I need to clear something up here. About 25 years ago, I went through a horrible experience with my family, because of a "ministry" we attended. There was a pastor there who was guilty of false teachings. Signs and wonders, word-faith kind of stuff. Along with "fleecing the flock" of tens of thousands of dollars. He almost tore our family apart. As well as many other families.

With that being said, I have absolutely no tolerance for false teachers, who know better, yet still steal and manipulate the people who trust them to teach scripture, and lead them spiritually. I need to make it clear that I'm not against the people themselves, who are the ones who are duped by these false teachers.

And like it or not, when I see false teachings, and false teachers, I tend to speak up very vocally about it. It may come across as harsh at times, but that's because it infuriates me so much.

RickD wrote:Well,

It seems like PeteSinCa left shortly after his last post here. I need to clear something up here. About 25 years ago, I went through a horrible experience with my family, because of a "ministry" we attended. There was a pastor there who was guilty of false teachings. Signs and wonders, word-faith kind of stuff. Along with "fleecing the flock" of tens of thousands of dollars. He almost tore our family apart. As well as many other families.

With that being said, I have absolutely no tolerance for false teachers, who know better, yet still steal and manipulate the people who trust them to teach scripture, and lead them spiritually. I need to make it clear that I'm not against the people themselves, who are the ones who are duped by these false teachers.

And like it or not, when I see false teachings, and false teachers, I tend to speak up very vocally about it. It may come across as harsh at times, but that's because it infuriates me so much.

I hope Pete returns...

Many of us here have experienced the phony stuff and been hurt by it one way or another so it pays to test all things as the bible says regarding this matter. I think Pete can understand that and see you in a better light as well as others.

However, let us remember that we do have an adversary as it is written: "Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8 NASB

Some folks scoff at this and confine it to only refer to the first century church but fail to note that this adversary still roars. How so? Well, what would be the best way to keep God's people from walking and living as believers today? Would it not involve sending counterfeits in first to stain the real and lower faith? Would not an enemy attempt subterfuge by telling the learned class that one's authority in Christ to heal and cast out devils was only confined to the first century church age? Would not an enemy lower ones hope in victory through such teachings?

Face it, by in large the church world is weak, unproductive, filled with motivational sermons and gimmicks, bound by control, and in most parts, ineffective. Everything is simply confined to salvation viva modern mass evangelism style programs and methods as well as built upon a marketing model to gin up church growth. People are not experiencing the power of the gospel message of Isaiah 61:1-4 and are instead told not to expect it because it was only confine to a bygone era. Well, the roaring lion roars...

Then you have the flashy abuse of the the Holy Spirit gifts and counterfeit signs and wonders that also hinder our faith in the Lord and often shipwreck many. The devil is having a field day and attends church regularly, he has nothing to fear from us. We are taught, we don't have authority to kick him out so might as well hear the latest motivational message gimmick in from the pulpit and go home. The lion roars and maybe with ironic laughter too...

So ask yourselves , what is you faith really in?

Dr Charles Stanley mentioned in his study notes, The Awareness of God's Presence, page one column two: "We have no idea what the Spirit of God can do if we surrender everything to him and live with a constant recognition of His powerful presence.

That concept too is roared at but it is true nevertheless. John 14:12, 13, 14, 15, 16 is not confined to the fist century church era but for all those that believe. We need the helper, the Holy Spirit, God more than ever today. Why, the roaring lion...

I find it true that in order to find church I must go outside the church because there you see God's hand move to heal and set free. I have seen to much of the Lord setting folks free, healing an amputated little toe (limb re-appear), almost totally deaf person receive his hearing, as well as had shamans and processed persons charge me and stop their assault with the name of Jesus and cast out what is in them. You don't here about the real deal, because it is outside the big church where only Jesus Christ is glorified and no one can make hefty dollars off the displays. I suffer from physical aliments like everyone else. I no longer wonder why God heals this one and not myself as I can accept his no answer for me as well as his yes for others without question. Seen to much, had the Lord use me as he wills to being light into some very dark areas. It all comes down to stop listening to the roaring lion and just surrender to the Holy Spirit.

Yes, folks will claim that John 14:12-16 is only for a certain kind of work and not another, or that was then but this is now... The devil still roars

Folks, I said it before, because of the false phone displays, do not toss out the baby with the bath water and continue to regulate the Holy Spirit to dwell in some back corner of your heart, silent, never noting He is even there or felt. Instead become filled up by having him occupy all of you heart. If there is one that needs prayer - stop and ask the Lord to Fill you up - empower you, guide your praying, be still for a moment, then pray. You may be amazed how soon the devil stops roaring and turns tail and runs... It is simple. (John 4:13,14)

As for Pete, I hope he comes back and understands equally that folks have been hurt by the hype in the church and be empowered with the Holy Spirit more and more in his life and I ask that for you all reading this as well too. Jesus did not leave us orphans and we do have power, but God will not share his displays alongside our pride....

"We have no idea what the Spirit of God can do if we surrender everything to him and live with a constant recognition of His powerful presence. Dr. Charles Stanley
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Jac3510 wrote:The early church did not have the authority granted to the Apostles, and the C&MA doesn't say they did. The C&MA teaches, explicitly I would add, that Christ as Healer means that He heals and that all such authority resides in Him. We explicitly repudiate the faith-healing movement. We pray for God to heal, believing that He still does. And returning to ST's question, it was about authority. Does Christ give us authority to do such works? The answer is obviously no. The Apostles had that authority in virtue of their office. We, not holding the office, do not possess its authority.

Sorry but this is a doctrine of man and is not of God or his word.Nowhere in the bible does it say the gifts died out when the apostles died out.No where in the bible does it tell us not to desire to speak in tongues and it even tells you what the gifts of the spirit are.Now I am one that believes in false signs and lying wonders and we are to be aware of it.But you read the book of Acts and 1st Corinthians about the gifts and it is clear that Paul is teaching how to use the gifts properly because they were not being used properly at the church of Corinth and nowhere in it does Paul say do not desire or follow after these gifts,he tells us we should desire them but he taught us how to use them properly,sadly very few churches do today just like the church at Corinth however it is still a doctrine of man that the gifts died out when the apostles died out and it is not biblical and is just your opinion.

I have actually seen a demon cast out of a woman and I saw it with my own eyes and it was real and I saw how the demon trembled at the name of Jesus like they did when Jesus cast them out which you can read about.

I was attending a revival once with my brother and his wife and after about 3-4 nights during the service I noticed a girl getting up and going outside and it was enough to notice it if you were sitting close to the back,but she would get up and go outside and one of the persons who brought her or was sitting by her would go out and bring her back in and this happened several times to where it was unusual and stuck out if you were aware of it.And I remember the evangelist was preaching about how the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword and I was really into it but kept noticing her get up and go outside.

Well toward the end of the service they brought her up to the front and the evangelist began ministering to her when all of a sudden you could hear a grumbling sound come out of her mouth that was not her voice.I was shocked as I had never seen anything like this before and so I watched and people gathered around her and began praying when all of a sudden the appearance on her face changed and it was real you could tell it was not her doing it and this was not her voice at all,well he started casting it out in the name of Jesus and it would go out and she would be normal and you could tell it was trying to trick the evangelist making him think it was gone,when it wasn't,so he kept going on and it would come back and you could hear the demon speaking but it was hard to understand what it was saying and kinda sounded like a different language but in a evil sounding way but it was not the womans voice doing the screaming.

Well the piano player went to the Piano and started playing Nothing but the blood of Jesus real loud and people were singing it and the demon went crazy in this woman and made her stick her fingers in her ears and so several men were pulling her fingers away from her ears,it took five men to hold her and it kept trying to trick them and make them think it was gone,but they kept it up for about an hour demanding it come out in the name of Jesus and you could tell it was trembling at the name of Jesus like the bible says they do.I was standing about 6 feet away from her and could look into her eyes and I know what I saw.

I had grew up in a Baptist church and had never seen anything like this in a church service but it was real and it eventually left her. Well the girl came back the following Sunday and came forward and thanked everybody for what they had done and she said that her and her friends had been playing with a Ouija board and somehow she was possessed and said she had been a lesbian.It is true that demons tremble at the name of Jesus like the bible says and I saw it.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:The early church did not have the authority granted to the Apostles, and the C&MA doesn't say they did. The C&MA teaches, explicitly I would add, that Christ as Healer means that He heals and that all such authority resides in Him. We explicitly repudiate the faith-healing movement. We pray for God to heal, believing that He still does. And returning to ST's question, it was about authority. Does Christ give us authority to do such works? The answer is obviously no. The Apostles had that authority in virtue of their office. We, not holding the office, do not possess its authority.

Sorry but this is a doctrine of man and is not of God or his word.Nowhere in the bible does it say the gifts died out when the apostles died out.No where in the bible does it tell us not to desire to speak in tongues and it even tells you what the gifts of the spirit are.Now I am one that believes in false signs and lying wonders and we are to be aware of it.But you read the book of Acts and 1st Corinthians about the gifts and it is clear that Paul is teaching how to use the gifts properly because they were not being used properly at the church of Corinth and nowhere in it does Paul say do not desire or follow after these gifts,he tells us we should desire them but he taught us how to use them properly,sadly very few churches do today just like the church at Corinth however it is still a doctrine of man that the gifts died out when the apostles died out and it is not biblical and is just your opinion.

I have actually seen a demon cast out of a woman and I saw it with my own eyes and it was real and I saw how the demon trembled at the name of Jesus like they did when Jesus cast them out which you can read about.

I am not a cessationist, and I not only have seen demons cast of out people, I have been involved in doing so myself. So you're making a lot of wrong assumptions here.

I would like to offer what I believe is evidence of Charismata remaining untill the return of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 1:1-17 speaks of lacking nothing (in Charismata) waiting for the manifestation of Jesus Christ. This verse though may be misquoted and I do apologize but the verse in context seems to suggest Charismata or all gifts of grace are to remain until his return. Now if you want to blasphemy the Holy Spirit lalong side Mr.MacAurther and call it kundalini then may God judge accordingly. But I worship Jesus Christ who's spirit lives in me, and if His Spirit does live in us then we are His anointed, if we are His anointed saints then the Authority Christ has lives in us and is able to do the work Christ did because it is in fact the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus Christ is Risen and sits at the right hand of God.

Ephesians29saved1 wrote:I would like to offer what I believe is evidence of Charismata remaining untill the return of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 1:1-17 speaks of lacking nothing (in Charismata) waiting for the manifestation of Jesus Christ. This verse though may be misquoted and I do apologize but the verse in context seems to suggest Charismata or all gifts of grace are to remain until his return. Now if you want to blasphemy the Holy Spirit lalong side Mr.MacAurther and call it kundalini then may God judge accordingly. But I worship Jesus Christ who's spirit lives in me, and if His Spirit does live in us then we are His anointed, if we are His anointed saints then the Authority Christ has lives in us and is able to do the work Christ did because it is in fact the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus Christ is Risen and sits at the right hand of God.

While I tend to agree with most of what you said, never forget that the gifts of the spirit are not the same for everyone.
Not all are teachers or healers or messengers or exorcists for sure ( even the apostles had a hard time with that one).

Ephesians29saved1 wrote:I would like to offer what I believe is evidence of Charismata remaining untill the return of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 1:1-17 speaks of lacking nothing (in Charismata) waiting for the manifestation of Jesus Christ. This verse though may be misquoted and I do apologize but the verse in context seems to suggest Charismata or all gifts of grace are to remain until his return. Now if you want to blasphemy the Holy Spirit lalong side Mr.MacAurther and call it kundalini then may God judge accordingly. But I worship Jesus Christ who's spirit lives in me, and if His Spirit does live in us then we are His anointed, if we are His anointed saints then the Authority Christ has lives in us and is able to do the work Christ did because it is in fact the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus Christ is Risen and sits at the right hand of God.

Use some discernment! Do the clips in this YouTube video look like the Holy Spirit?

Silvertusk wrote:Does Jesus give us authority to cast our demons and command diseases to go and heal people?

Jac3510 wrote:.

RickD wrote:.

Sorry for the necro, btw.
I can see most of you say no to Silvertusk's question. That is understandable (since you are not Catholic, obviously), but what of the exorcists? How do you explain their existence, doings...?