Evidence for God from Science

We must realize that it is quite possible that those whom have lived and died (post Christ) without ever hearing the Gospel or before Christ without having The Law and the Books of Moses (OT) were deliberately put in their time and place precisely BECAUSE God intimately foreknew their minds and hearts of permanent and intentionally resistant rebellion. I would go further to speculate that God has kept many such people isolated from His Word as those in such heathen nations have often been the most aggressive and violent - meaning that their geographic separations have protected other nations and places so that peace would be more likely and the Gospel could better take root. This would have been a benevolent and loving thing - to separate people from those most resistant to God, as those most resistant are often the most dangerous to the rest. But only a God with perfect foreknowledge of all things, motivations, hearts and minds could do this. Our God can and has.

As for the supposed remote tribe in the jungle, Romans tells us that they are "without excuse" because the have rejected key basic things that God has ALREADY shown them. But how could or can such a remote people without The Law or the Gospel know about God? Romans tells us things we cannot necessarily see that they know: "For what can be known about God is PLAIN to them, because God has SHOWN it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been CLEARLY perceived, EVER SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." And notice that the passage above never once mentions people's rejection of the Gospel or Jesus as the reason they are without excuse. It is because they have ALREADY rejected what He tells us He has ALREADY made "plain" to such people, and that they have "clearly perceived." We can't see this because we can't see in people's hearts and minds what God can.

So rejection of knowledge of Jesus (in the Tri-Une Godhead) is not necessary for them to be "without excuse," as it is their basic knowledge of and rejection of God that He has ALREADY given them that condemn them: "For although THEY KNEW God, THEY did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but THEY became futile in THEIR thinking, and THEIR foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, THEY became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of THEIR hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because THEY exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

Again, although many millions have lived and died without having either The Law or the Gospel, God has always LIKELY miraculously communicated with many of them (those He foreknew to be RECEPTIVE and WILLING to hear and respond to His message), what they needed to be saved. We have to remember that God is not limited by time and place - although WE perceive these as "obvious" and "insurmountable" barriers to those needing but not having the Gospel (post Jesus) or saving knowledge leading to belief in Him (pre-Jesus). And the Great Commission makes it obvious that God desires to use us in HIS mission to reach lost peoples. The point is that while there is reasonable speculation based upon what we know about God and His love for men, we simply can't KNOW, with CERTAINTY, how God has dealt with those He has not reached with His written Word. To state anything definitive would be entirely speculative.

Question: how God's foreknowing that some people will return to him goes along with 1 Corinthians 2:14?
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Question: how God's foreknowing that some people will return to him goes along with 1 Corinthians 2:14?
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Hana, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. But ALL people who eventually become believers are initially drawn and wooed by God, and IF they are willing to respond to the light that He shows them, He will show them more and guide them into salvation. ALL people can decide to be either willing or unwilling to positively respond to God's overtures. And many can be PERMANENTLY unwilling - no matter what level of information about Himself He provides them or how He enlightens them, they will NEVER desire to honor or obey Him. They want to stay their own little gods. Scripture teaches that God has left ENOUGH of a witness of Himself that ALL can respond to even the basic things that He has already shown them. And it also states that rejection of even those basic things is enough to condemn them - as they COULD know more but resist and reject even the basics that He has shown them. Of course, many sat at the very feet of Jesus in the flesh, saw astonishing miracles - but their hearts remained resistant and determined to remain in their rebellion. How much more INFORMATION did such people need? And that is key - as most people don't have an INFORMATION problem - they have a HEART problem. God will always provide enough information to the WILLING and positively RECEPTIVE heart. So it's not that God is withholding from people what they need to be saved. It's that, for many, more information will only lead to them rejecting that as well.

My belief is that while the offer of salvation is to ALL men, God well knows that ALL will not respond to that call - in fact most will run in the opposite direction, in their determined and permanent rebellion. God knows ALL whom will respond to Him and He also knows exactly what level of information, wooing and circumstances each individual who will eventually be receptive to Him needs to come to belief (and that is different for each). And per the verse, there are many things that only a believer with God's spirit inside of them can understand. But that is a separate issue from the fact that God gives ALL what they need to be receptive and to positively respond to what He has ALREADY shown ALL men. Because if they will respond to the BASIC information about Himself (He gives ALL), then He will show them more and more and lead them into salvation. The natural man can only be willing to respond and positively respond as God enlightens Him. And if they will do that, it is enough for God to do and provide what that man needs to come to belief, and thus, salvation.

So to summarize: (correct me if I am wrong)

Many people here believe that when Bible mentions called people, those called people are those who God foreknows will respond. All people somehow had chance to choose him but those who are even foreknown to be unwilling may not come across gospel.

Hard stuff since I cannot imagine that well God being beyond our time.

1over137 wrote:Question: how God's foreknowing that some people will return to him goes along with 1 Corinthians 2:14?
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

At one time, the things of God were foolishness to me. I mocked them, placed them on trial, refused to see the goodness of God, and lived life by poking my finger in God's eye. The bad I did, I justified as okay to do and tried to do good to mask all the things I justified doing. I viewed life as temporal and death as non-being/non existence. I had no morality other than a golden rule I never could keep as it proved the hypocrite in me was alive and well. The only solace I had was that life was utterly and contemptuously futile so I could get away with doing as I pleased and justified. It did not matter who or what heart I stole for my own pleasure, or how I robbed affections from others to get my gets, because life at that time was lived according to the tenets of quid pro quo. Therefore the things of God were purely foolishness to me at that time.

Then God awoke me one day to the reality of himself through Jesus Christ. I had a choice confront me, then and there that pressed hard upon my heart. In other words, God intervened and violated my free will most thoroughly. If he had not, I would never been confronted with a true choice. It is that confrontation, Hana and readers, that awakes us. God foreknows the result that his call will have on all people. He sent the word become flesh for the purpose of his call (John 1:1-14) to be made known for reconciliation. I was awoken to the reality that I was an enemy of God and I needed to return and be transformed into a new person. His very call, thrust a dramatic choice before me. I could have remain as I was, or decide to follow Christ Jesus by living the repentant life of transformation of a believer of Christ empowered by God's grace.

This personal example, demonstrates how God awakens a person by His CALL and how his call forces a choice upon a person. An individual will have to respond in a manner that accepts God's terms of mercy, or reject them as foolishness. It is that, that God foreknows - he foreknows the final result of his call that goes out to all will have on a person and in effect seals them either as a vessel of mercy or a vessel of corruption. The natural human cannot know the things of God unless God confronts that person on a personal individual level with a choice between light and darkness. He is always speaking in many diverse ways to all people as the bible indicates in several places such as Romans chapter one. At one time, I lived life by selecting my personal brand of dominion over a God whom I thought did not exist. Others live like I once did or create gods, philosophic systems, political ideologies, personal codes of behavior that justifies their ideas of exercising dominion and payback in many diverse ways.

God sent Jesus, the living Word, to present a living call by which one will either remain as a natural man unsurrendered or a spiritual person surrendered to God as the proper way to govern ones gift of dominion. As Phil stated and I address, God knows who are his based upon knowing the final result His call will have on every person and sets people in their place in history accordingly. Such knowledge as this is way beyond what we can fully grasp or explain in mere human language. Once you see it, you end up resting in the sweet, yet, just sovereignty of God which is way beyond humans words to explain. Now look at Ephesians 4:17,18,19,20 and 1 Timothy 4:1,2 and 2 Timothy 3:1,2,3,4,5,6 and Titus 3:3,4,5,6... God's calling will awaken people either to remain true to the kind of dominion they love the most or repent from it as per Luke 24:45,46,47... so states. God cannot help but to foreknow all things as to know all things is His nature.

Now re-read my prior answer... as it might make a bit more sense.

B. W. wrote:Per Gen 1:26 - God gave us a charge of dominion and no gift, calling, or promise will he take back. Therefore, with this calling comes the ability to choose and exercise intelligence freely in order for us all to live according to the charge. This creates personal responsibility, and choice, so the call of salvation goes out to all but not all will choose God's way back to reconciliation with God. Those that will not, he already foreknows never will, yet, still offers the same choice to them nevertheless. Such he assigns in groups, nations, geographic locations in various eras of time as he knows best where they can live according to the dominion they created.

This is found in Acts 17:21-34. The most foreknown debased folks he can turn into a Pharaoh or Judas to demonstrate his power over evil with no violation to a person's own will charged with exercising dominion. Some who lived so long ago who would never accept God's way back to himself, he allowed to live and do deplorable things. Why, he foreknew that some of their future progeny would return to him, freely after hearing his wooing call, and all of us here writing here now, Hana, are that progeny.

At one time, I thought as many do, the things of God were foolishness but basically I was jack slapped by God who loved me enough to violate my free will in order to awaken me to my need for Him. From my need for Him, my exercise of dominion is transformed out of darkness into his light in a slow progressive living way... Romans 8:29,30
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Thanks b.w. I still have questions in my head, but later and in another post in future.

1over137 wrote:Thanks b.w. I still have questions in my head, but later and in another post in future.

Keep asking !
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B. W. wrote:

1over137 wrote:Thanks b.w. I still have questions in my head, but later and in another post in future.

Keep asking !
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... and keep noting and remembering : ) . I need to utilize what I have been told so far.

1over137 wrote:So to summarize: (correct me if I am wrong)

Many people here believe that when Bible mentions called people, those called people are those who God foreknows will respond. All people somehow had chance to choose him but those who are even foreknown to be unwilling may not come across gospel.

Hard stuff since I cannot imagine that well God being beyond our time.

I think that God "predestined" certain people for certain things, like the apostles and that God knows ( of course) those that will listen and those that won't.

Location and predestination, very similar implications that can hurt very deeply. The Bible addresses WHAT is predestined - namely that human beings "should be conformed to the image of His Son" Romans 8:29. The previous chapters conclude ALL under sin, and ALL under the blood of Christ - shed for all, in all time, in all locations. Nobody can physically live without Christ - John 1:4 "the life was the light of men." Colossians 1:17. While "in Adam all die," all are predestined by God to be saved through His Son, Romans 5:20, "where sin abounded grace exceeded" To an elitist this is blasphemy, because they recon that all are "judged by their works" - and if we read very carefully it is referring to the works done "in secret" or the works "of the heart," as judged by God, not by outward appearances. And so the humble native without the knowledge of Christ, who understands the incompatibility between honesty and a lie, choosing the way of compassion, is justified before God. And who gave this nameless individual that kind of grace except Jesus Christ the light of the world? Notice that Romans 8:30 states that predestination comes before being called, justified and glorified. God has predestined everyone be saved by Christ, but if they, like Pharaoh, do not respond to the calling, He cannot justify them or glorify them. Romans 9:15 to 23 seems to indicate that if God wants to destroy you, you have no choice in the matter, but it does not suggest that at all, but quite the opposite, if God has chosen to save us in His love, who can tell Him what to do? who is the Boss the potter or the clay? When we directly or indirectly avoid God because we feel condemned, we are basically telling Him what to think of us, and that is not accepting His view of the matter.