Evidence for God from Science

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Just something to think about Kenny, God is our Father and like all fathers he teaches us, now if he just gave us a manual on how to live do you seriously think it would help us be any better. I know my own kids would probably discard the manual and think that they know better and in some ways it is good for them to learn the hard way because lessons are best learnt when we discover meanings ourselves rather than having it spelled out to us, the best lessons are also the ones with consequences because we remember them. Whether God have us a manual or not would not change the outcome, if anything it would make us lazy, relying on him for all the answers.

Are you suggesting the Bible makes Christians lazy; relying on God for the answers?

Ken

err no, that is the opposite of what I said.

The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men inspired by their interactions with God, the Bible if anything makes us more intellectual because we have to know about a lot of different subjects to come to an understanding of difficult passages. But the message is pretty simple when you boil it right down, love God, love others, period.

I must be misunderstanding you. You said if God gave us a manual on how to live our lives, we would probably become lazy; relying on God for the answers. I thought you were refering to the Bible as this manual of how to live our lives; obviously you meant something else, so what is this manual?

Ken

Silvertusk wrote:

Kenny wrote:He didn’t even tell his followers to write anything down? Instead years after Jesus was killed, various people began to write stories about Jesus and of course all the stories were not on one accord, so many years later other men (cannon) decided/voted on which stories were accurate and which ones were not and they used the ones they decided were good to be a part of the Bible. But if Jesus had written the bible, there would be no voting, guessing, deciding, by flawed men; God would have done the deciding. So what do you think the reason is?

Ken

What is better - writing amazing stuff about yourself and asking everyone to accept it at face value - or be so amazing yourself that other people want to write about you?

Both. If Jesus wrote the bible that wouldn't stop others from writing about him as well, their writings just wouldn't be a part of the Bible and the stories of Jesus would probably be more in tune with each other; example the Islam account of Jesus would probably mirror the Christian account of him.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Just something to think about Kenny, God is our Father and like all fathers he teaches us, now if he just gave us a manual on how to live do you seriously think it would help us be any better. I know my own kids would probably discard the manual and think that they know better and in some ways it is good for them to learn the hard way because lessons are best learnt when we discover meanings ourselves rather than having it spelled out to us, the best lessons are also the ones with consequences because we remember them. Whether God have us a manual or not would not change the outcome, if anything it would make us lazy, relying on him for all the answers.

Are you suggesting the Bible makes Christians lazy; relying on God for the answers?

Ken

err no, that is the opposite of what I said.

The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men inspired by their interactions with God, the Bible if anything makes us more intellectual because we have to know about a lot of different subjects to come to an understanding of difficult passages. But the message is pretty simple when you boil it right down, love God, love others, period.

I must be misunderstanding you. You said if God gave us a manual on how to live our lives, we would probably become lazy; relying on God for the answers. I thought you were refering to the Bible as this manual of how to live our lives; obviously you meant something else, so what is this manual?

Ken

You asked why Jesus didn't write down exactly what he wanted us to do, that is the manual I was referring. We don't have a manual, we have an internal guide (the holy spirit) and an external guide (Bible), both require a lot of work to be able to understand. What you asked for is an exact manual so there would be no confusion, translation errors etc, with a break down piece by piece and how to put it all back together again, how could we ever learn if we are just spoon fed everything.

neo-x wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So you want God to take away the gift of free will? Because even if God wrote it himself we are still able to change it. Seriously how much simpler do you want it, Jesus said love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love others like you love yourself. There's not much to understand, it's pretty simple it didn't even need to be written down.

Mohammad wrote the Koran, nobody changed it; what makes you think someone would change the Bible if Jesus wrote it? And there is a lot more to the bible than love God and love others.

Ken

Kenny, just to get your facts straight, M didn't write the koran, his followers did. After M died, Abu Bakar the first caliph ordered invasions on neighboring lands as to collect every single copy of the koran, as there were many versions of it. They had them burnt and then with the followers of M who were living and who had saw M during his life. They got them together and then verified the Koran again, where two followers didn't agree, that portion was cast out and where two or more agreed that they had heard M saying such was kept and that is how the whole book was tailored.

You’re right! A quick Google search


http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/338/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

confirms much of that you said is true. Much of what I learned about Islam came from a Muslim friend of mine who apparently knows less about the Koran than you do. Thanks for clearing that up for me

Ken

melanie wrote:Good question Kenny, if we never ask the questions then how can we ever find the answers.


Firstly we live in a society and time that values the written word above all else, we want to see things "in writing" before we believe them, therefore it is difficult to understand that the opposite was true in ancient times. In the time that Jesus lived literacy was no more than 10% so the primary method of communication was oral. It was customary that a teacher would not write down his own words rather he would hire a scribe. Therefore it cannot be said that oral transmission was unreliable or meant that the message was less important. Jesus nor anyone in ancient times would share this modern sentiment.

So when the Books that eventually became the bible were written, did most of the men hire scribes to write the books? If so, why didn’t Jesus use the aid of a scribe?

melanie wrote:Secondly if the bible was written by Jesus himself I believe that Christians could fall into a trap of worshipping the book, not the author. Fixing our eyes solely on the Bible, in the form of idol worship, instead on fixing ourselves on Christ.

Do you believe they would actually worship the Bible or simply consider it sacred?

melanie wrote:Lastly and I think most importantly resonates what Silvertusk said. He took the words right out of my mouth . There is a certain amount of arrogance attached to witnessing ones own greatness, which is not in sync with Jesus's message of selflessness and humility. When others witnessed on Jesus behalf it spoke of his divinity, greatness and his humility.

I suspect if Jesus had written the Bible, the bible would be different; rather than writing about him, he would have written the message God wanted put down or he may have done some teaching akin to the type of teaching he did before he was executed. What do you think?

Ken

PaulSacramento wrote:IN the ANE ( ancient near east) oral testimony was valued more than the written one, the only time things were written down was when the original witnesses to that testimony were dwindling, which is exactly the case we have with the Gospels ( The Epistles are obviously a different matter).

I never considered that possibility! Good point.

K

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Just something to think about Kenny, God is our Father and like all fathers he teaches us, now if he just gave us a manual on how to live do you seriously think it would help us be any better. I know my own kids would probably discard the manual and think that they know better and in some ways it is good for them to learn the hard way because lessons are best learnt when we discover meanings ourselves rather than having it spelled out to us, the best lessons are also the ones with consequences because we remember them. Whether God have us a manual or not would not change the outcome, if anything it would make us lazy, relying on him for all the answers.

Are you suggesting the Bible makes Christians lazy; relying on God for the answers?

Ken

err no, that is the opposite of what I said.

The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men inspired by their interactions with God, the Bible if anything makes us more intellectual because we have to know about a lot of different subjects to come to an understanding of difficult passages. But the message is pretty simple when you boil it right down, love God, love others, period.

I must be misunderstanding you. You said if God gave us a manual on how to live our lives, we would probably become lazy; relying on God for the answers. I thought you were refering to the Bible as this manual of how to live our lives; obviously you meant something else, so what is this manual?

Ken

You asked why Jesus didn't write down exactly what he wanted us to do, that is the manual I was referring. We don't have a manual, we have an internal guide (the holy spirit) and an external guide (Bible), both require a lot of work to be able to understand. What you asked for is an exact manual so there would be no confusion, translation errors etc, with a break down piece by piece and how to put it all back together again, how could we ever learn if we are just spoon fed everything.

So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

Ken

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow. I actually think we make it difficult on ourselves, we over complicate something that is so so simple, we are the ones at fault when it comes to understanding God and his plan.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow. I actually think we make it difficult on ourselves, we over complicate something that is so so simple, we are the ones at fault when it comes to understanding God and his plan.

So is it simple? Or is it complicated?

Ken

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow.

Thought I would throw my 2 cents in
Yes I believe it was God's plan to make it a little difficult for us, but maybe not in the sense you mean.
That is why Jesus spoke in parables, he knew that not everybody would understand or give proper thought to the parables. Some people tune their hearts and ears to God's voice, while others deliberately block their ears. When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables he quoted Isaiah saying "let those that have eyes see, and those that have ears listen" It is a choice we have to make, it is God's way of seperating the wheat from the chaff.
If you read the bible to satisfy your mind, to find answers on an intellectual level only you will never find the truth hidden in the words, you simply just cannot. What is contained within the bible is the food for our spirit, it is through the Holy Spirit that understanding and truth is revealed. That is why a christian can read the bible over and over again, why we can a read a passage 10 times, 100 times, 1000 thousand times. I am not into repetitive reading for the sake of it, I would never read even my favourites books 100 times, maybe over the years several, but not over and over again, it would end up becoming boring, tedious and pointless.
But it is so different when it comes to the Bible, you can read a passage, then again the following week, year or decade and everytime something new and different can be revealed, because it is the language of the spirit that is being spoken, the words on the page a merely a tool, the Holy Spirit breathes the translation to our souls, as we grow and change in our spirit, so does our truth and understanding.

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow. I actually think we make it difficult on ourselves, we over complicate something that is so so simple, we are the ones at fault when it comes to understanding God and his plan.

So is it simple? Or is it complicated?

Ken

It is both Ken
It is simple for those that have ears and want to listen and complicated for those with ears but cannot hear.

Kenny wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow. I actually think we make it difficult on ourselves, we over complicate something that is so so simple, we are the ones at fault when it comes to understanding God and his plan.

So is it simple? Or is it complicated?

Ken

I suggest you go back over what I have written and give it time to sink in because I made it plainly clear in what I wrote.

Read what Melanie wrote and think about it.

melanie wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow.

Thought I would throw my 2 cents in
Yes I believe it was God's plan to make it a little difficult for us, but maybe not in the sense you mean.
That is why Jesus spoke in parables, he knew that not everybody would understand or give proper thought to the parables. Some people tune their hearts and ears to God's voice, while others deliberately block their ears. When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables he quoted Isaiah saying "let those that have eyes see, and those that have ears listen" It is a choice we have to make, it is God's way of seperating the wheat from the chaff.
If you read the bible to satisfy your mind, to find answers on an intellectual level only you will never find the truth hidden in the words, you simply just cannot. What is contained within the bible is the food for our spirit, it is through the Holy Spirit that understanding and truth is revealed. That is why a christian can read the bible over and over again, why we can a read a passage 10 times, 100 times, 1000 thousand times. I am not into repetitive reading for the sake of it, I would never read even my favourites books 100 times, maybe over the years several, but not over and over again, it would end up becoming boring, tedious and pointless.
But it is so different when it comes to the Bible, you can read a passage, then again the following week, year or decade and everytime something new and different can be revealed, because it is the language of the spirit that is being spoken, the words on the page a merely a tool, the Holy Spirit breathes the translation to our souls, as we grow and change in our spirit, so does our truth and understanding.

Agree 100%. I think we are both saying the same thing but just a little differently.

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IN the ANE ( ancient near east) oral testimony was valued more than the written one, the only time things were written down was when the original witnesses to that testimony were dwindling, which is exactly the case we have with the Gospels ( The Epistles are obviously a different matter).

I never considered that possibility! Good point.

K

If you like to read, my I suggest:
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony by Richard Bauckham (Sep 22, 2008)

melanie wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kenny wrote: So you think it was part of God's plan to make it a little difficult for us?

I would say it was God's plan for us to use the abilities and talents he gave us so that we may learn and grow.

Thought I would throw my 2 cents in
Yes I believe it was God's plan to make it a little difficult for us, but maybe not in the sense you mean.
That is why Jesus spoke in parables, he knew that not everybody would understand or give proper thought to the parables. Some people tune their hearts and ears to God's voice, while others deliberately block their ears. When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables he quoted Isaiah saying "let those that have eyes see, and those that have ears listen" It is a choice we have to make, it is God's way of seperating the wheat from the chaff.

It seems to me it would be just as easy to be “chaff” with a clear message as it is an unclear one; the difference is it is much more difficult to be wheat when the message is unclear and complicated; do you agree?

melanie wrote:If you read the bible to satisfy your mind, to find answers on an intellectual level only you will never find the truth hidden in the words, you simply just cannot. What is contained within the bible is the food for our spirit, it is through the Holy Spirit that understanding and truth is revealed. That is why a christian can read the bible over and over again, why we can a read a passage 10 times, 100 times, 1000 thousand times. I am not into repetitive reading for the sake of it, I would never read even my favourites books 100 times, maybe over the years several, but not over and over again, it would end up becoming boring, tedious and pointless.
But it is so different when it comes to the Bible, you can read a passage, then again the following week, year or decade and everytime something new and different can be revealed, because it is the language of the spirit that is being spoken, the words on the page a merely a tool, the Holy Spirit breathes the translation to our souls, as we grow and change in our spirit, so does our truth and understanding.

Do you suppose that might be why so many Christians disagree on the bible, because each time one reads it something different and new is revealed?