Evidence for God from Science

Starhunter wrote:Thanks for that, now I understand where you are coming from, and I am sorry if my post suggested that Catholics/Christians are somehow condemned and deluded. Far from it, no, rather the system of religion held the truth back from the common people. Remember that the Bible was forbidden - you would be imprisoned or torched if you were found reading it, or even having a copied portion of it.
The Papacy was the apostate Christian church using the powers of the ten European nations, sometimes called the Barbarian nations which took advantage of the crumbling Roman empire. These powers are represented as the ten horns coming out of Rome.
Christianity has its roots in the apostles of Christ, as you know it became world wide, competing with paganism, but as predicted by the prophets and apostles it went astray, plunging the world into the dark ages rightly named. See II Thess 2:1-5.
And, yes, ironically it was responsible in part to preserving Christianity, in two ways, by persecuting the saints the Gospel was spread abroad, and by upholding the icons of Christianity through its vain rituals.

As far as Satan worship is concerned, unfortunately actions speak louder than words, you cannot hunt down and kill 60 million people and call it of Christ. Besides the prophecies of Daniel make it very plain who is behind what.

Don't ever feel condemned, you are far too precious to God.

The connection to the thread, I'm lost now, but scientific knowledge died with the truth of the gospel under the reign of the Papacy. Everything worthwhile was withheld from the common people. The average lifespan was reduced to 30 years.

No actually Daniel doesn't make anything plain. I know this because Mathew ch24 says we are to remain ready and will only know that it is the end AFTER the end has begun, like a theif in the night, in retrospect like those that drowned in Noahs day. That tells all Christians that those that purport to know the meaning or times with certainty are false prophets and do not speak for God.

Yes you are correct in that actions speak louder than words but you are speaking to ancient history. You ignore the here and now. Christendom, including the papacy remains the Church of God. You cannot demonstrate otherwise. If any church has NOT gone through an apostasy then it cannot be the church of God. The best you are able to do is confirm that the papacy is the Church of God that went into apostasy and is now coming out of it.

I repeat, in modern times the Papacy along with all of Christendom is coming out of apostasy. All Christian faiths have roots to Catholicism OR are protestants or pop up sects with spiritists at their base. If we are drawing close to the end of days, then the Christian congregation, which inludes Catholics, are the ones Satan hates and is at war with.

In order to make gravity the force that binds galaxies together, some world leaders in popular opinion have proposed black holes, seeing that the mathematical models of matter on a large scale demand it.
There is not enough gravity to keep stars in some sort of orbital confinement. The powers attributed to black holes are calculated to be suitable to do the job, but while mathematics predicts that such a thing should exist, it does not exist as a single point in one location. Indeed if all known physical laws become insignificant, including the parameters of time and space, then a black hole could be in any place at any time, in any shape or size without showing any signs of relating to any given creation made of matter, and yet providing specific needs such as the tremendous gravity required for a single galaxy.

God has already provided physical means of holding galaxies etc, which do not require gravity, let alone ghastly black holes. The Light and Waters in Genesis are those powerful instruments.
God asked Job several questions in Chapter 38 (KJV) and the answers are in the questions. These answers reveal that the Waters are related to location or space, and the Light to time and movement. These two are used by the Word to produce the space time effects of matter as we know it.

But God can use these forces to cause matter to behave outside of it's natural boundaries, such as He did during the crossing of the Red sea, when the water congealed and stood as walls several meters high, on either side.Exodus 15:8.

Careful consideration and study shows how these forces are used by God in every aspect of nature, from frost, to circulating the atmosphere, to orbiting planets and everything in the universe.

When reading God's questions to Job, any term He uses, such as "the cloud" and "face of the deep" etc, has to be accepted by what He means by it and not our own presumptions. For eg, He may use the term "sea" or "seas." In the context of creation these have specific definitions which are not ordinary water or oceans, nevertheless they are described by ordinary images we can relate to.

The only black holes are between the left and right ears of mortals.

PS, thanks for your previous post too, must have been added while on this one, agree with you.

Starhunter wrote:In order to make gravity the force that binds galaxies together, some world leaders in popular opinion have proposed black holes, seeing that the mathematical models of matter on a large scale demand it.
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I don't believe that world leaders propose black holes or Big Bang. I do believe many scientists search for theories that don't need God in the equation.

However, try as they may, scientists are continually left with a paradox. In the beginning, prior to the singularity, all the energy that converted to matter in this universe must have always existed, particularly if energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The very first verse of Genesis, "In the beginning God...." has to be correct. Atheist scientists may argue this energy did not have consciousness. However such an assertion relies on luck that the physics of this universe were tweaked such that it and life could form. The alternative argument, the laws of physics and this universe were designed by a superior intelligence does not rely on luck and sounds more plausible.

Steven Hawkins is now suggesting there are no black holes. Here is an article on it with links to the research.

http://www.newstatesman.com/future-proo ... lack-holes

Einstein showed us, with his deceptively simple equation (energy = mass times the speed of light, squared), that mass is simply another form of energy. We can, and do, go both ways: mass to energy and energy to mass. Scientists routinely make mass from kinetic (moving) energy generated when particles collide at the near-light speeds attained in particle accelerators.

Hence we have the physics and also have observed that a great form of energy can produce matter instantly. I give that energy a title, God.

I could have said "world leaders in science" but chose "world leaders in popular opinion." I have some admiration for Steven Hawking for his battles in thought, but none for the masses who lap up whatever is published without applying any thought themselves. The fact that Hawking has reconsidered his position on the subject shows scientific method. But how sad that scientists only hop around on one leg - reasoning, and don't use both - faith and reasoning.

The famous mass energy formula, describes the reaction that takes place when matter is disassembled, for example half a kilogram of uranium, but it does not account for the energy involved in the design of matter such as required for a rabbit weighing half a kilogram, neither for the energy required to keep that rabbit existing from one moment to the next. The same applies to uranium. It can be changed in a moment into energy, but it takes energy to continue mass or energy in time.

It is commonly thought that once something exists - such as matter or energy, that no more power is required to keep it in existence from one moment to the next. but from Colossians 1:17 we know that all things are in continuance by infinite power. So the universe is maintained by a flow of power emanating from the Word or Christ.

How this is possible can be accepted by understanding the relationship between the persons of the Godhead. Christ being equal with the Father has infinite power, but if there is any difference or change in the role of either person, there is an immediate rush or vault of infinite power. He only needs to do this once for a short time, because the energy created by a difference multiplies and repeats itself, the power is living in the true sense. Remember the loaves and fishes?

The change in role is caused by Christ being subject to the Father, as any of the three do by their role. So the universe is caused by meekness, which is surrender, which is love, which is Who God is. All three surrender themselves for creation to exist, and they enjoy every bit of it.

Christ surrenders all His power, the Father grants all His power to the Son and the Spirit gives all His power to mediate that power according to their plan. Here is an infinite vault of energy which can maintain and govern the universe for eternity. And the same power in creation is committed to the human race to save them. Does God do things in half measure? Through the mediation of the Spirit, Christ is given to us by the Father. All heaven was emptied for us and we think twice about surrender.

Starhunter wrote:It is commonly thought that once something exists - such as matter or energy, that no more power is required to keep it in existence from one moment to the next. but from Colossians 1:17 we know that all things are in continuance by infinite power. So the universe is maintained by a flow of power emanating from the Word or Christ.

If you gave witness to non believers by going on about the majority of your full post above, the people you were witnessing to would not understand what you are talking about. God and Christ do not use magic or deception. Miracles such as the multiplication of the loaves and fishes must have been done by physics mankind has yet to understand.

As for this bit I quoted, scientists know they have no clue about what holds the universe together, but that doesn't help their scientific standing at all. They come up with terms like "Dark", eg dark matter & dark energy, which also means they have no idea what they are talking about. However, dark energy and dark matter is an insertion value that assists BB theory, and is meant to explain why the universe does not fly apart. Still the physics fall apart at the singularity.

For other readers I'll post this info. "Definitive evidence for the dark universe has come from many sources, including astrophysical observations of clusters of galaxies that would have flown apart if visible matter were the only thing holding them together. As close to home as the Milky Way, visible matter alone would not hold the stars in their orbits. Dark matter holds the universe together. "

http://www.interactions.org/quantumuniv ... atter.html

BB requires mysteries such as dark matter and dark energy and most importantly must keep the earth and our galaxy from being special in any way. That does not mean God could not have created the universe via BB. Many theists believe BB is so 'proven' that it must have been how God created the universe.

What I mean is there are better models that put the milky way at the centre of the universe. That makes us special and goes against the Copernican Principle. If BB is ever validated, then perhaps dark energy and dark matter are the physics behind God and how he is everywhere and holds the universe together. IOW perhaps dark matter and dark energy is some part of Gods' will in action on a plane of physics mankind has yet to understand.

Here is a model that I like better than BB. This is a galactocentric model that places the Milky Way at or near the centre of the universe, reconciles with the theory of general relativity and does not require dark matter or dark energy. It is based on wave theory and credited to Temple and Smoller, neither of which are creationists, or even theists as far as I am aware.

https://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~temple/!! ... b/cv83.pdf

Hey Mazzy, you must be a scientist.

1over137 wrote:Hey Mazzy, you must be a scientist.

No, I am not a scientist. I have done 1st year biology and chemistry then turned to a social work degree. I couldn't handle killing mice or playing with maths as a career. I worked in a couple of labs and wore a white coat for a few years, but that was doing QA which got boring very quickly. I do like to read scientific articles and publications and that is a good way of learning. Thanks for the compliment!

A true scientist has their own mind and does comparisons, that's what reasoning is. You've done that here, so I'd have to agree with Oneover. Keep at it.

Ivellious wrote:

and they were able to manipulate matter to behave abnormally, such as cutting and transporting stones weighing hundreds of tonnes without a noise. This technology was perfected in the days of Solomon who used it to build the temple's foundations.

We know how ancient civilizations transported massive stones despite the lack of modern technology. It had nothing to do with long-lost technology or "manipulating matter to behave abnormally." They used their rudimentary understanding of mechanics and what we call physics. Their was no magic to it, just smart people who learned how to accomplish seemingly difficult tasks by observing the world around them and putting their observations to the test.

Several other nations have done similar work, between 2300 BC and 800 AD.

So where did this magic technology go after 800 AD, and why is there no record of it being used or how it was used? If there was widespread knowledge and application of incredible world-shattering technology being used for thousands of years, don't you think someone might have thought to describe it and write about it at some point?

Modern teleporting experiments are complicated and involve too much energy to be practical on a larger scale, but the ancients employed simpler methods.

Teleporting experiments? While the thought of Star Trek-style teleportation is cool in theory, anything remotely close to that is simply absurd to think about. Quantum mechanics, if we ever found a way to completely control it on a grand scale, could potentially lead to technologies with similar applications on a small scale, but that is probably thinking way too far ahead right now, even optimistically.

It may be important to know this, because the world is ignorant and vulnerable to manipulation by ancient and foreign technology, which incidentally was discovered by European scientists in the 1860's. From time to time, there are appearances of paranormal activities which are so bizarre and unexplained that they are generally dismissed.

What technology are you referring to? You seem to be jumping around so much that it is hard to follow your thought process.

Sorry, for not replying earlier, I thought this post came from Mazzy, so I tried to answer from a different angle, and got caught up in another related topic.

The ancient technology basically allows atoms to 'buzz' or operate at a slower mode. We already know that if atoms are stimulated, that they resist change, and give that extra energy off as, heat, light, etc, or in the case of molecules and compounds, they may throw off elements or join onto less active matter. Most of our technology such as metallurgy, uses these principles.
If atoms are calmed down to a lower level of operation, they also resist and do things like joining with other molecules, arranging themselves into crystals etc.
In the science model, atoms use their own 'magical' energy - apparently nothing causing them to exist or work, the BB did it all.

In the creation model, atoms are caused to exist and work by the operation of the Light which is caused by the Word, which is caused by the mouth of God. The nature of the Word is supernatural and living - it has everlasting power as well as life and intelligence. An easy way to think of it - a "fire enfolding it self," or multiplying and dividing endlessly.

The ancients knew that the background force of matter, called Light, has dual characteristics and that it fluctuates as it interacts with matter. They observed that everything in nature from the seasons to the position of the celestial bodies, was affected by changes to the background force. At the right time, material can be induced to jump down a harmonic in operation, changing the rate of oscillation, its space time properties, changing the way that it interacts with the normal environment. So material can lose weight and mass, and even pass through normal matter.

Because the ancients worshiped nature, they made themselves targets of the occult, worshiping the stars, and causing idols and gods to be named representing those invisible forces.

Notice that gods are typically male and female or both or neither, representing the duality and extremes of the Light.
They used the properties of sound as a symbol for the voice of God - having pitch and volume, producing four variants, PV,Pv,pV,pv - the formula for the four elements. These are rejected by modern science as primitive and childish, hence they cannot find out this ancient tech. The four elements are an easy rule to use when working out what the background force is doing. The background force causes energy to be stored, recycled, renewed and released. For example, there are 12 places on earth, one of which is the Bermuda triangle, which has abnormally high fluctuations, causing ships to lose their buoyancy, causing fierce storms and electro magnetic aberrations. It is natural, happening all over the world, all the time, generating the power for lightning, storms, rain, ocean currents, mountain lights, the rotation of the earth etc.

Modern science is probably waiting on the discovery of more extraordinary particles, like the latest Higgs particle, which is a mere flash in the pan, of forces hundreds and thousands of times more powerful than matter. And that these forces can alter everything about matter. Picture an ocean of power, and matter as small boats on the surface. Or an atmosphere of power and small pieces of matter scattered throughout. This is essentially a picture of the universe - points of low energy - matter in a sea of high energy - scientists imagine it might be dark energy. Always searching for truth, never finding it.

Enough for now.

Ps, the reason common people don't know this is two fold, its very difficult to switch established perceptions of matter, and Satan has wanted to own the knowledge of the invisible forces, and to hide the truth about how God creates, because it shows a clear connection between our physical world and the existence of God.
Two keys unlock the truth - the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (the law and the gospel) Both describe the nature of God's personality and character which is revealed in His artwork - creation. The ten laws actually govern all physical laws in the universe, and are the keys to mysteries. These ten laws have been dismissed by Christendom and atheists, and the gospel is reduced to a feeling. Therefore the fear of the Lord cannot be the beginning of knowledge for both parties.

StarHunter,

I honestly and sincerely don't know whether to be in awe of you or to dismiss you as sophist charlatan. Now I'm a fairly educated, well-read, semi-intelligent person but, again in all honesty, I have never heard of such, err ... I don't even know what to call them, 'theroies' I guess? (both italicized and in quotes).

You did manage to intrigue me, though. Do you have any links (they don't even have to be reputable ones at this stage) that would describe these 'theories' in greater detail?

Byblos wrote:StarHunter,

I honestly and sincerely don't know whether to be in awe of you or to dismiss you as sophist charlatan. Now I'm a fairly educated, well-read, semi-intelligent person but, again in all honesty, I have never heard of such, err ... I don't even know what to call them, 'theroies' I guess? (both italicized and in quotes).

You did manage to intrigue me, though. Do you have any links (they don't even have to be reputable ones at this stage) that would describe these 'theories' in greater detail?

I agree Byblos, I just posted a similar sentiment on another thread before I read this. I'm not sure what to make of it either, I am also intrigued but extremely sceptical. I am pretty well read and maybe slightly intelligent and I have never come across these ideas either.
Please explain Starhunter

I am tired of BS, these conspiracy theories are all worthless junk. Not one of these statements has any spine. I appreciate the members but I don't appreciate what they are putting down. What's next, flat earth?

People go into depression reading this stuff which ia nonsense on the face of it. Angels, aliens, invasions, all stupid stuff which has no ground in the Bible, are of no theological importance except being sensational.

I have been with this crowd before, literally destroyed my faith.

Christ ain't coming soon fellas, better save your time to do something worthwhile. This comes as harsh but not ill intended. Please pull your head from which ever underground rock you have buried it beneath.

melanie wrote:

Byblos wrote:StarHunter,

I honestly and sincerely don't know whether to be in awe of you or to dismiss you as sophist charlatan. Now I'm a fairly educated, well-read, semi-intelligent person but, again in all honesty, I have never heard of such, err ... I don't even know what to call them, 'theroies' I guess? (both italicized and in quotes).

You did manage to intrigue me, though. Do you have any links (they don't even have to be reputable ones at this stage) that would describe these 'theories' in greater detail?

I agree Byblos, I just posted a similar sentiment on another thread before I read this. I'm not sure what to make of it either, I am also intrigued but extremely sceptical. I am pretty well read and maybe slightly intelligent and I have never come across these ideas either.
Please explain Starhunter

I gave up on replying to Starhunter due to his continuing to speak about the 'ancients' and their knowledge as if such claims should be taken seriously.

neo-x wrote:I am tired of BS, these conspiracy theories are all worthless junk. Not one of these statements has any spine. I appreciate the members but I don't appreciate what they are putting down. What's next, flat earth?

People go into depression reading this stuff which ia nonsense on the face of it. Angels, aliens, invasions, all stupid stuff which has no ground in the Bible, are of no theological importance except being sensational.

I have been with this crowd before, literally destroyed my faith.

Christ ain't coming soon fellas, better save your time to do something worthwhile. This comes as harsh but not ill intended. Please pull your head from which ever underground rock you have buried it beneath.

The thread topic is "How God Creates". I have already posted on matter being able to be created instantly. I have posted on current studies into teleportation. It is not a conspiracy theory to suggest physics is informing how a God could create instantly.

What would be really stupid stuff is suggesting the earth and mankind are not special, offering inconsistent guesswork as proven science and people that can't stick to the thread topic because they have some axe to grind.

StarHunter you posted this below and I have to say that I am not going to take non plausible posts seriously.

"In the creation model, atoms are caused to exist and work by the operation of the Light which is caused by the Word, which is caused by the mouth of God. The nature of the Word is supernatural and living - it has everlasting power as well as life and intelligence. An easy way to think of it - a "fire enfolding it self," or multiplying and dividing endlessly.

The ancients knew that the background force of matter, called Light, has dual characteristics and that it fluctuates as it interacts with matter. They observed that everything in nature from the seasons to the position of the celestial bodies, was affected by changes to the background force. At the right time, material can be induced to jump down a harmonic in operation, changing the rate of oscillation, its space time properties, changing the way that it interacts with the normal environment. So material can lose weight and mass, and even pass through normal matter."

I don't want to be rude, but this above is nonsense. If you can post any link related to science and physics that gives any of the above any base in reality, I really think it is time you posted it.