Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:

Philip wrote:

Can you clear up what you mean here? What MUST they do to be saved?

Sure!

Repent (This is recognition that we are sinners and need the salvation that God requires for entrance into an eternity in Heaven)
"37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:37-38)

"No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3)

Believe
29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16: 29-31)

But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.
"23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, 24 “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1: 23-24)

Belief in not just Who Jesus is, but it's a belief that confesses and believes in the historical truth of His Resurrection
"... because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart othat God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:9-11)

It's an ACTIVE faith
"Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!)
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Now that begs the question of WHEN one does that and at what stages they are done and IF they are ever fully done, right?

We must do all of that?

And here I thought salvation is God's free gift which cannot be earned.

I think the Philip means that there are things that are done by believers that are required NOT because we are trying to be saved BUT because out of love for Our Lord.
IMO, these things are done NOT to receive the HS and His Grace BUT because we HAVE received them.
I think that the HS that seals us, "drives" us to repent BUT before that can happen we must believe and have faith in Christ, of course to do that we need the help of the HS.
I think that we all have the HS in us to some degree and when we open ourselves to Him, that faith and belief is sealed and we are under His Grace.
See, I don't think you can repent and have faith and believe WITHOUT the HS.

PaulSacramento wrote:I think the Philip means that there are things that are done by believers that are required NOT because we are trying to be saved BUT because out of love for Our Lord.
IMO, these things are done NOT to receive the HS and His Grace BUT because we HAVE received them.
I think that the HS that seals us, "drives" us to repent BUT before that can happen we must believe and have faith in Christ, of course to do that we need the help of the HS.
I think that we all have the HS in us to some degree and when we open ourselves to Him, that faith and belief is sealed and we are under His Grace.
See, I don't think you can repent and have faith and believe WITHOUT the HS.

I'm sorry Paul, that's all Greek to me. But then again how could I possibly understand? I'm just a misguided Catholic who's never read scripture, much less understood it. Thank God for the magesterium.

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think the Philip means that there are things that are done by believers that are required NOT because we are trying to be saved BUT because out of love for Our Lord.
IMO, these things are done NOT to receive the HS and His Grace BUT because we HAVE received them.
I think that the HS that seals us, "drives" us to repent BUT before that can happen we must believe and have faith in Christ, of course to do that we need the help of the HS.
I think that we all have the HS in us to some degree and when we open ourselves to Him, that faith and belief is sealed and we are under His Grace.
See, I don't think you can repent and have faith and believe WITHOUT the HS.

I'm sorry Paul, that's all Greek to me. But then again how could I possibly understand? I'm just a misguided Catholic who's never read scripture, much less understood it. Thank God for the magesterium.

LMAO !

Well then !

I think that many times the worse enemy of the RCC is the Pope.
He tends to say things that don't make a lot of sense based on actual Catholic tradition or what is in the bible and this is one of those cases.
I mean the bible is quote clear that the ONLY mediator between Man and God is Christ and no where does it mention that Man needs a mediator between Him and Christ so where the Pope got that idea only God knows.

Even in the Catechisim, the church is the WHOLE of all those that believe, all believers make up the church/body of Christ:

752:
In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body.

753 In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations on a profound theme: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body.144 Around this center are grouped images taken "from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage."145

754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.146

PaulSacramento wrote:Even in the Catechisim, the church is the WHOLE of all those that believe, all believers make up the church/body of Christ:

752:
In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body.

753 In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations on a profound theme: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body.144 Around this center are grouped images taken "from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage."145

754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.146

Which is precisely the point of his statement Paul. I mean if one would read what he said without the lens of the RCC or his position as a Pope, I don't think he said anything any christian would disagree with. His point was by no means that one should not have a personal relationship with Christ, his focal point is that it ought not be done outside the community of believers because that is where it is most effective. After all we are a church, a community of believers where our faith grows and thrives. Strip all the theological differences and the titles and so forth and that's exactly what the Pope's point was. I wonder why any Christian would disagree with that.

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Philip wrote:

Can you clear up what you mean here? What MUST they do to be saved?

Sure!

Repent (This is recognition that we are sinners and need the salvation that God requires for entrance into an eternity in Heaven)
"37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:37-38)

"No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3)

Believe
29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16: 29-31)

But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.
"23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, 24 “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1: 23-24)

Belief in not just Who Jesus is, but it's a belief that confesses and believes in the historical truth of His Resurrection
"... because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart othat God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:9-11)

It's an ACTIVE faith
"Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!)
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Now that begs the question of WHEN one does that and at what stages they are done and IF they are ever fully done, right?

We must do all of that?

And here I thought salvation is God's free gift which cannot be earned.

I realize Byblos is half joking, but I'm with him on this. It looks eerily like a works based salvation.

IMO, these things are done NOT to receive the HS and His Grace BUT because we HAVE received them.

WHOSE faith is it? WHO is it that God says must repent and have faith? US! Which is are the conduits through which God has ordained a main receives saving grace. To ignore the very plain instructions of what is necessary for faith is to play word games with the Gospel.

I think that the HS that seals us, "drives" us to repent BUT before that can happen we must believe and have faith in Christ, of course to do that we need the help of the HS.

Yes, the Holy Spirit most definitely moves us toward faith. And we could not believe without God's Spirit prompting us. But just as we can reject and disobey God's Spirit, we can also embrace it. If we will do that, be WILLING to positively respond to what He shows us, He will do the rest. But WE most definietly have things that He requires of US as well. But He has set those things up and made them possible through the cross.

I think that we all have the HS in us to some degree and when we open ourselves to Him, that faith and belief is sealed and we are under His Grace.
See, I don't think you can repent and have faith and believe WITHOUT the HS.

Only a saved believer has the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the Spirit's prompting and Its Indwelling. And God's foreknowledge allows Him to know precisely what prompting and actions each person will need to come to faith - and those are different, person to person.

So one side asserts that Baptism and membership in some church is what saves. Now, those would likely be external signs of what has already transpired internally in the mind and heart, but they are secondary to the internal transformation in a true believer in Christ. Now, clearly, there are many Catholics who have a very deep and personal relationship with Jesus (my FIL was one) - despite centuries of CC teachings of Biblically contradicting teachings and declarations. But many miss Jesus because of the rituals of the church, and of believing all is well with their soul simply because of CC membership and following church traditions. And isn't that exactly what Jews thought as they believed being an Israelite justified them before God. Or in attempting to meet the standards of the Pharisees and the Sadduces. Just take a look at the actions and words of the Popes through history and you'll see many Scriptural heresies. At the very least, a Catholic should do the things that God says one MUST do to be saved. And it is clear what those things are. God has made it all exceptionally simple, so why would anyone claiming to be a Christian NOT have done them? I'd think one would want to be SURE!

I realize Byblos is half joking, but I'm with him on this. It looks eerily like a works based salvation.

Rick, I sure hope you aren't inferring that repenting and having faith are works? The ONLY reason man has a choice to accept and follow Christ is that GOD PROVIDED IT. The CHOICE was given by God, and HE tied the two alternative choices to very different outcomes. So exercising a choice given to you, that God says everyone MUST make, is all of God's setting up and preparing. And I also hope you're not suggesting (per Five Point Calvinism) that man has no decision to make regarding Salvation - that God chose who would live eternal life with Him (based upon nothing WE will ever do or will even have an opportunity to do) AND ALSO that He pre-determined who would only live lives of hopeless desperation now and terrible punishment later? One can decide whether or not to have faith. One CAN reject God, can resist the Holy Spirit. Or one can embrace the Spirit's prompting and enlightenment.

It looks eerily like a works based salvation

No, it LOOKS like that is what you may interpret it as being. Remember, one's responses are matters of one's mind and heart. And if we needed no instruction about this matter, either God wouldn't have so prolifically given them or they are irrelevant. Which do you choose, if you label them works-based? So, do the Scriptures mean what they say or NOT? "Doing" these things only save us because of what God has ALREADY done (at the cross, His Spirit's prompting and enlightenment), what He has required of us, as as to the consequences He has built in to our RESPONSES. Yes, one can say meaningless prayers, merely believe in a historical Jesus, and take on the appearance and trappings of churchianity - but will those works save them. No! Either God GAVE us decisions related to salvation or our free will is non-existent and the choices Scripture describes aren't real. Which is it?!!!

I think its a clever move to bring people back to the church. I think that is all this is, wrong but still...

neo-x wrote:I think its a clever move to bring people back to the church. I think that is all this is, wrong but still...

Why does not he say we need fellowship. We need our brothers and sisters and they need us. We need them for encouragement, support, and they need us.

I am afraid that wouldn't be enough. The catholic church is in a myriad of problems. Public relations have suffered. I think on the whole this pope is doing what the last one should have been doing. Rebuilding broken bridges. I am not saying he is doing it the right way, but I think they are desperate for more attendance.

By linking Christ as the ultimate head of the church he is building a clever stance. I can not say he is doing blasphemy, he hasn't. He hasn't said that no man can have a direct relation with christ. He said, through the church we are one with Christ, relatively that is not a wrong statement, per se.

Philip wrote:
Rick, I sure hope you aren't inferring that repenting and having faith are works?

Of course not Philip. But this looks like works/adding something to faith in Christ for salvation:

But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.

There are not different kinds of belief/faith. Of course if a believer continues to abide in Christ, one will want to follow Christ. That's discipleship. That's not salvation.

And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!)

Salvation is by God's grace, through faith/trust in Christ. It's simple. Don't make it complicated. We need to be careful saying salvation comes only if we obey. That would mean salvation was dependent on how we obey. That's a works based salvation.

Maybe you don't mean it that way, but as it was written, it looks like a works based salvation.

1over137 wrote:

neo-x wrote:I think its a clever move to bring people back to the church. I think that is all this is, wrong but still...

Why does not he say we need fellowship. We need our brothers and sisters and they need us. We need them for encouragement, support, and they need us.

What do you think the church is?