Evidence for God from Science

OnceSaved wrote:Some minds are like concrete thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

I see on your profile under the question, Christian...you said NO...figures.

Domenic wrote:BW, You are a mod of the forum, and yes you can even ban me...but my friend, you will never get me to think as you, or follow you down your path. Your post is full of false things. You know little, or nothing about the people who are stuck in the cult of the watchtower.As to my telling the truth..I do not lie, and I resent your suggestion I do. I think your post is a cruel attack on Christians you know nothing about. And no they do not have to go door to door after work,or anytime if they do not want to.

If your post is how you understand Agape, you have much to learn. It is your form of Agape that turns people away from God...You post is cruel, and not Christian...I will read no more of what you post.

"...true Christian love shouts – "don’t go that way – the bridge is out!"

A fool says, back to the Christian, “Don’t shout at me, Christian, your warning is way to unloving and offends me as too judgmental. I have a right to speed down this road, how dare you – you unloving Christian hypocrite try to lecture me not to take this road!”

Dominic
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Mr. B.W. I believe sir, that you have reduced yourself to the one liners joke section

Hey, I just had a chat with the JW's last week. We talked and talked and talked for over half an hour at my front door. I actually enjoyed talking with them.

They are exceptionally well-equipped with counter-arguments for everything related to their teachings which may seem to contradict the new-testament (any version). So we got onto the topic of end-times. They were adamant that the end times are 'coming now'. I made the point that according the the bible, now one knows that day or hour of tribulation and rapture (e.g. "that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" Matt 24:36).

Their reply was that Jesus now knows that day and hour of rapture because Jesus has gone back to the father and the father has revealed it to him and now Jesus has revealed to the JW's since Jesus has come back in 1914.

Then we got onto the subject of the 144,000 dudes that will go to heaven...but I wont go into it.

We could have talked forever !

The one thing I noticed after this meeting was that I felt good for a number of reasons:-

(a) I rather liked them and would have given them a good old hug if I knew them better - they seemed happy and content.
(b) Respected their beliefs (whether right or wrong).
(c) Did not impose my beliefs or knowledge on to them.

They have been saying the end is "coming now" since 1914.
They do NOT have any good counter-arguments for orthodox teachings, what they do have is good aounter-arguments for THEIR MADE UP interpretations of orthodox teachings.
Be wary of the difference between that.

Thanks Paul. I'm always wary of the JW's. Here are some more observations......

(i) I have a "DO NOT KNOCK" sign on my front door. And guess who ignores and sign ? The JW's and the Mormons.
(ii) Once you chat with the JW's, they note down your address and mark you as a potential target for conversion (so they keep coming back).
(iii) I'm careful not to let them in the house (to minimize psychological infection).
(iv) I do enjoy learning their point of view but as an academic exercise only - many different cults are here in my neighborhood.
(v) I'm part of a few cults already. They are called the "average suburban family" cult and the "Christian-orthodox" cult. But these cults tend to not force me away from family members who disagree with teachings of said cult(s). Although the "average suburban family" cult eats into a large portion of my salary !
(vi) I occasionally have some fun with the JW's. Asking them half-baked questions like "would your church help me get rich quick so I can retire early" (some bad humor goes a long way you know).
(vii) Its sometimes nice to have people to talk to who aren't too mentally challenging (I don't mean that in a derogatory way).
(viii) Anyway, I've been given enough direct-experiences (& gifts of the holy spirit) to know who/what I should follow.

I really don't have any problems with anyone of any religious faith as long as they are respectful and at least try to do right in this world. I don't care if they're JW's, Muslims, Atheist, or whatever, as long as they're not devil worshipers or practitioners of witchcraft and stuff like that. Other than that, I do believe that we all are in search of God (for lack of a better way of putting it) and we're all in need of salvation. How God brings that salvation to each of us is of a very personal nature, and only He knows the hearts of men/women. Therefore I believe that wether if your a native in the amazon, or a tribesman in the heart of africa, of a villager up in the himalayas, God is there with His grace ready to receive you. everything you do is either of a Good Spirit or not, and such you will be giving an account of your life. But for those of us who have heard and received the call at the door by Christ, we are called to be nation of Priests, and we are held to a higher standard that the rest., that is what I believe in my heart., I don't condem people, even though it is mighty hard not to think of a whole lot of people as severely lost.

Lonewolf wrote:I really don't have any problems with anyone of any religious faith as long as they are respectful and at least try to do right in this world. I don't care if they're JW's, Muslims, Atheist, or whatever, as long as they're not devil worshipers or practitioners of witchcraft and stuff like that. Other than that, I do believe that we all are in search of God (for lack of a better way of putting it) and we're all in need of salvation. How God brings that salvation to each of us is of a very personal nature, and only He knows the hearts of men/women. Therefore I believe that wether if your a native in the amazon, or a tribesman in the heart of africa, of a villager up in the himalayas, God is there with His grace ready to receive you. everything you do is either of a Good Spirit or not, and such you will be giving an account of your life. But for those of us who have heard and received the call at the door by Christ, we are called to be nation of Priests, and we are held to a higher standard that the rest., that is what I believe in my heart., I don't condem people, even though it is mighty hard not to think of a whole lot of people as severely lost.

Well said Lonewolf ! I'm going to give you a blessing and a splash of holy water. But I'm still interested in what makes the JW's the way they are.

Since this is an Apologetic forum, god, science etc,... and the thread is "Love for the JW's", it would be interesting to investigate their belief's and practices a little further. For example, do they have a strong enough faith ? Is it the blind leading the blind ? Is it the work of Satan ? Is it God just working in a mysterious way? Do they use coercion instead of gentle persuasion ? Is it a classic "bait-and-switch" scheme ? Do they try and impose their will on your free will ? Would you like it if they took away all your family members and their salaries and never allowed you to talk to them ever again ? Do the JW's bring families together or tear them apart ? Do they know what it is to really love humanity ?

I've been to some churches where newcomers receive the Holy Spirit on the first day. And some go to churches for 30 years and don't get squat. Is the JW's church the former or the Latter ?

Lonewolf wrote:I really don't have any problems with anyone of any religious faith as long as they are respectful and at least try to do right in this world. I don't care if they're JW's, Muslims, Atheist, or whatever, as long as they're not devil worshipers or practitioners of witchcraft and stuff like that. Other than that, I do believe that we all are in search of God (for lack of a better way of putting it) and we're all in need of salvation. How God brings that salvation to each of us is of a very personal nature, and only He knows the hearts of men/women. Therefore I believe that wether if your a native in the amazon, or a tribesman in the heart of africa, of a villager up in the himalayas, God is there with His grace ready to receive you. everything you do is either of a Good Spirit or not, and such you will be giving an account of your life. But for those of us who have heard and received the call at the door by Christ, we are called to be nation of Priests, and we are held to a higher standard that the rest., that is what I believe in my heart., I don't condem people, even though it is mighty hard not to think of a whole lot of people as severely lost.

Nicely said
I believe this also LW

Lonewolf wrote:I really don't have any problems with anyone of any religious faith as long as they are respectful and at least try to do right in this world. I don't care if they're JW's, Muslims, Atheist, or whatever, as long as they're not devil worshipers or practitioners of witchcraft and stuff like that. Other than that, I do believe that we all are in search of God (for lack of a better way of putting it) and we're all in need of salvation. How God brings that salvation to each of us is of a very personal nature, and only He knows the hearts of men/women. Therefore I believe that wether if your a native in the amazon, or a tribesman in the heart of africa, of a villager up in the himalayas, God is there with His grace ready to receive you. everything you do is either of a Good Spirit or not, and such you will be giving an account of your life. But for those of us who have heard and received the call at the door by Christ, we are called to be nation of Priests, and we are held to a higher standard that the rest., that is what I believe in my heart., I don't condem people, even though it is mighty hard not to think of a whole lot of people as severely lost.

Well put.
We sometimes forget that salvation is through a PERSONAL relationship with Christ and like any personal relationship, it will be different person to person.
The issue arises with a religion tries to separate a person from Christ ( like Islam and atheists) or put someone/a group BETWEEN a person and Christ like the JW's do.

LittleHamster wrote: Well said Lonewolf ! I'm going to give you a blessing and a splash of holy water. But I'm still interested in what makes the JW's the way they are.

Since this is an Apologetic forum, god, science etc,... and the thread is "Love for the JW's", it would be interesting to investigate their belief's and practices a little further. For example, do they have a strong enough faith ? Is it the blind leading the blind ? Is it the work of Satan ? Is it God just working in a mysterious way? Do they use coercion instead of gentle persuasion ? Is it a classic "bait-and-switch" scheme ? Do they try and impose their will on your free will ? Would you like it if they took away all your family members and their salaries and never allowed you to talk to them ever again ? Do the JW's bring families together or tear them apart ? Do they know what it is to really love humanity ?

Little Hammer

Don’t be splashing no Holy Water on me just yet ~> I just might melt !!! (Nevermind the Catholic in Me)

What makes JW’s the way they are is no diff, imo, than the rest of us

If you’re an American, JW’s are just like all Americans
If you’re a Mexican, TdeJ are just like all Mexicans

On and on

They are a bi-product of “Religion” in The World wherever you're living at..
And in particular ~> The West

As to the “fact” of whether they have a strong enough ‘faith” ~> I can attest to that

They DO
Some at least

And as to The Blind Leading the Blind., That’s one big huge topic of discussion still going on between myself and a good JW friend of mine

We don’t talk in that knocking on door-to-door type of happening., no sir., we get into it on a more “personal level”

I have the most huge discontent for him and the like minded, in regards to ~> targeting Catholics and those other folks who have very little understanding of scripture who open their door.,
that’s not to say that I have that great of an understanding of scripture, for I’m but a babe.,
but deliberately targeting those that are not so well founded in anything, and are looking for an answer to their plight.,
I have the most realistic contempt for this type of systematic targeting from them (JW’s) or anyone else, a matter of fact!!!
Without True Love your message is canada, I mean crap!!!

I believe that JW's message is what you would term ~> gentle persuasion, the classic bait-and-switch., come at you nice-and-gentle, and then switch it up on you once you’re hooked.,
I hate it!!!
It is the most deceiving message according to everything I have been raised on.

You cannot be, in any good conscience, be a good friend while you’re “scheming” to draw someone in to your understanding.,
and I say scheming because ~> according to the talk with my compa (friend) ..
they do rehearse and deliberately go after some

and it is not because they believe that most will hear their message, but simply because it becomes as a testament..
a testament against those who refuse the message.,

that message is biblical in a sense., but is it really?., I do strongly believe it not!

Thanks for your post Loneworld errr, I mean Lonewolf.

By the way its "Little Hamster" not "Little Hammer" lol.

Anyway, I tend to agree with what you have said. The thing that stuck in my mind with the two JW's that I spoke to was that they strictly believed that they were not one of the 144000 elected to go to heaven but were going to remain of earth when the kingdom is established.

So yes, they had a 'strong faith' but not one that's going to get them to Heaven. Their church has literally denied them salvation in Heaven through 'strong faith' and I suspect its doing it for a lot of others as well through 'strong faith'. This seems a bit contradictory to the new testament.