Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
Starhunter wrote:Then there are all kinds of baptisms invented by men of all sorts, sprinkling, finger dipping, dunking the head only, washing the hands only, going underwater several times, the list goes on. Many don't even use water.
But the Baptist's have got it right - there is only "one baptism" by immersion, at the time of conversion or at the age of accountability - no infant sprinkling. Baptism by immersion is Biblical. And if you are aware of this fact, then Baptism by water is essential for salvation - if it is available and convenient. But if you don't know about it here are some texts to start with.
Matthew 3:13-16, 28:19-20
Acts 3:38, 8:38,39, 16:30-33, 22:16,
Colossians 2:12,13
Galatians 3:27.
Romans 6:1-4
I Corinthians 12:13
Baptism by immersion means all the body going under water. That's why rivers and lakes were used and not pots and cups.
None of those scriptures say that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Why do people need to add conditions to salvation?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
The Holy Spirit Inspired Apostle wrote wrote:For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes, is baptized, repents, and remains faithful until they die in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life.
Fixed that for God
It's a good thing I went to school for all those years so I could learn to help Him be clearer!
FTFG, FTW!!!
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Starhunter wrote:Then there are all kinds of baptisms invented by men of all sorts, sprinkling, finger dipping, dunking the head only, washing the hands only, going underwater several times, the list goes on. Many don't even use water.
But the Baptist's have got it right - there is only "one baptism" by immersion, at the time of conversion or at the age of accountability - no infant sprinkling. Baptism by immersion is Biblical. And if you are aware of this fact, then Baptism by water is essential for salvation - if it is available and convenient. But if you don't know about it here are some texts to start with.
Matthew 3:13-16, 28:19-20
Acts 2:38, 8:38,39, 16:30-33, 22:16,
Colossians 2:12,13
Galatians 3:27.
Romans 6:1-4
I Corinthians 12:13
Baptism by immersion means all the body going under water. That's why rivers and lakes were used and not pots and cups.
None of those scriptures say that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Why do people need to add conditions to salvation?
By the way, I've just corrected Acts 3:38, should be 2:38.
These are just a few texts off the top of my head of many.
Jesus told His disciples to teach others to observe whatever He commanded them. Matthew 28:20.
Mark 16:16 "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believes not shall be damned" Jesus said that.
If Jesus did not command it, the disciples would not have done it, and if they did not, they would be dismissed by Christ as unworthy.
People were baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, to "put on Christ" and for the "washing away of sins"
all in the few texts I gave you.
Jesus set the example for baptism.
If these texts are not clear in your Bible, then you probably have a fake version. That's why other versions came in - to get rid of every good doctrine.
I am only going by what the Bible says, so chill out cats.
Starhunter wrote:
These are just a few texts off the top of my head of many.
None of which show water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Jesus told His disciples to teach others to observe whatever He commanded them. Matthew 28:20.
Mark 16:16 "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believes not shall be damned" Jesus said that.
If Jesus did not command it, the disciples would not have done it, and if they did not, they would be dismissed by Christ as unworthy.
Read what the text actually says. "...and he that believes not, shall be damned."
Yes, Jesus commanded water baptism. But as a symbol of the real baptism. The baptism of the HS, which saves.
If these texts are not clear in your Bible, then you probably have a fake version. That's why other versions came in - to get rid of every good doctrine.
Yes, you're right! Your bible must say in John 3:16: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him and is baptized in water, shall not perish but have eternal life.
I am only going by what the Bible says, so chill out cats.
No. You are taking scripture out of context, and adding to the gospel!
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Silvertusk wrote:Rick, you of all people should know that baptism is totally necessary for salvation. You are going straight to hell buddy.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
It simply comes down to this. Either you believe what scripture says about salvation, or you don't. Salvation is by Grace, through faith in Christ. Period.
Salvation by Grace, through faith, plus water baptism , is adding a condition to salvation that scripture doesn't add.
And FYI, I'm not disagreeing with water baptism. I'm disagreeing that it's required for salvation.
We have plenty of threads on the subject if you're interested. If you want to post bible verses that you think show water baptism is necessary for salvation, post them. We can study each verse in context, so you can see that water baptism properly understood, is the outward symbol, of the inward baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the HS is done by God. The symbol, water baptism, is done by men.
It's your call. If you're open to the truth, we can study this together.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
It simply comes down to this. Either you believe what scripture says about salvation, or you don't. Salvation is by Grace, through faith in Christ. Period.
Salvation by Grace, through faith, plus water baptism , is adding a condition to salvation that scripture doesn't add.
And FYI, I'm not disagreeing with water baptism. I'm disagreeing that it's required for salvation.
We have plenty of threads on the subject if you're interested. If you want to post bible verses that you think show water baptism is necessary for salvation, post them. We can study each verse in context, so you can see that water baptism properly understood, is the outward symbol, of the inward baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the HS is done by God. The symbol, water baptism, is done by men.
It's your call. If you're open to the truth, we can study this together.
That's fine, I agree with you, but you could have come in on that angle in the first place,
...not that I mind you being upfront at all.
I think that baptism is like a gift to God, it is a way of standing up for Him in public, in the same way that a marriage ceremony is not necessary, but I don't wonder what the bride thinks.
It simply comes down to this. Either you believe what scripture says about salvation, or you don't. Salvation is by Grace, through faith in Christ. Period.
Salvation by Grace, through faith, plus water baptism , is adding a condition to salvation that scripture doesn't add.
And FYI, I'm not disagreeing with water baptism. I'm disagreeing that it's required for salvation.
We have plenty of threads on the subject if you're interested. If you want to post bible verses that you think show water baptism is necessary for salvation, post them. We can study each verse in context, so you can see that water baptism properly understood, is the outward symbol, of the inward baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the HS is done by God. The symbol, water baptism, is done by men.
It's your call. If you're open to the truth, we can study this together.
That's fine, I agree with you, but you could have come in on that angle in the first place,
...not that I mind you being upfront at all.
I think that baptism is like a gift to God, it is a way of standing up for Him in public, in the same way that a marriage ceremony is not necessary, but I don't wonder what the bride thinks.
Well good then. I'm glad you're willing to work together with this.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Again, what the problem is is making the Greek word translated salvation / save have only one meaning. It has more than one meaning, and here are a few:
Greek 4982 σώζω - Sozo means, To save, rescued, delivered, made whole, cleansed, preserved safe from danger-loss- and destruction.
The Context the word is used helps define the word as well as follow the continuity of other biblical passages. So let's look at the Continuity in the bible regarding how one is Born again and Saved, therefore read John 3:16 and Eph 2:8, 9. These verses do not contradict each other and both refer to salvation being by God's grace and faith in his grace shown upon the cross. There is a qualifier too, saved by grace not works, period. Water Baptism is a work, therefore, a work cannot save. Because of this, other passages in the bible that uses the word 'Sozo' along with works such as baptism strongly suggest the other meaning of the word Sozo is being used - not saving salvation.
With that in mind, Read Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved (sozo); but he who does not believe will be condemned." NKJV
Sozo in the text is not referring to saving salvation but rather what Mark 16:18-19 alludes too - acts of deliverance, being made whole / complete, cleansed, get through times of danger - follow those that Believe...
That helps zero in the meaning of Sozo with baptism used in the verse. Water baptism helps one be cleansed. It is a sign of cleansing and the desire to change ones life's direction. In fact the Apostle Paul stated this very same thing in Romans 6:4,6,11,12,13,19,20,21,22,23 concerning how water baptism is a sign of dying to self and rising with Christ to defeat sin in one's life from reigning supreme. Therefore, the sozo of baptism has more to do with cleansing to be made whole and ready for service for the Lord. But is the Lord really referring to water Baptism here -after all one can be baptized with fire, words, stones, etc...
As a matter of fact, becoming born again looses the Holy Spirit within our lives to clean us up inside out, delivering us out of darkness into God's light. The text of Mark 16:16 is not about a work of water baptism bringing saving salvation but rather - sozo - cleansing and getting through times of danger as the two verses following verse 16 clearly indicate.
Now notice, that verse 16b only mentions that those not believing will be condemned and please notice that water baptism is not mentioned at all in context with condemned. This indicates that the Lord is revealing that believing in him alone is all that is necessary for saving salvation as well as getting through times of danger and inner cleansing. Baptism into Him alone, the person of Christ, not in water, does these things and that is what He is referring too. This also lines up with the words Jesus spoke in John 3:14-21. Please read the verse again and may you see what Jesus is saying and not what you think he is saying. Likewise, baptism, is not limited in meaning to only mean to be immersed in water because Baptism is also can be associated with fire too and a host of other things that immerse a person i.e. at work, one can be baptized in paper work. It is all about Jesus Christ, not the sign of water baptism, but rather baptized into Christ Jesus...that saves, cleanses, helps one get through times of danger - whole - delivered... set free...
One should never exalt a work - water baptism above God's saving grace - as that can produce Idolatry and that is a bad thing to do with water Baptism.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
Lonewolf wrote:I think we all agree that baptism is not required for salvation., but., does baptism guarantee the "forgiveness / remission of sins" ??
I don't agree that baptism is not essential for salvation, in so much as I don't agree that if you ignore an explicit command of Jesus Christ that you will be called an obedient disciple.
"Teaching them" said Jesus, "to observe ALL things, WHATSOEVER I have commanded you;" He had just told them in the same breath that they were to baptize.
If anyone teaches otherwise they are not the disciples of Christ.
Lonewolf wrote:I think we all agree that baptism is not required for salvation., but., does baptism guarantee the "forgiveness / remission of sins" ??
I don't agree that baptism is not essential for salvation, in so much as I don't agree that if you ignore an explicit command of Jesus Christ that you will be called an obedient disciple.
"Teaching them" said Jesus, "to observe ALL things, WHATSOEVER I have commanded you;" He had just told them in the same breath that they were to baptize.
If anyone teaches otherwise they are not the disciples of Christ.
What do you think of B.W.'s post above?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
Starhunter wrote:
I don't agree that baptism is not essential for salvation, in so much as I don't agree that if you ignore an explicit command of Jesus Christ that you will be called an obedient disciple.
Ok. Show me where in scripture, Jesus commands water baptism as a condition for salvation.
"Teaching them" said Jesus, "to observe ALL things, WHATSOEVER I have commanded you;" He had just told them in the same breath that they were to baptize.
But where is it shown to be a requirement of salvation? Jesus told his followers to baptize, BECAUSE they were believers. He didn't command water baptism TO BECOME a believer. See the difference?
If I tell my son, "Because you are my son, you will do your chores." I'm not telling him to do his chores so that he can be my son.
If anyone teaches otherwise they are not the disciples of Christ.
They may not be obedient disciples, but they are still disciples. Just like if my son doesn't do his chores, he's still my son.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
