Evidence for God from Science

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

neo-x wrote:There is no end to this conflict...no one is a saint in this. There is no right or wrong, just greater or lesser of evils.

You are right when you say that there is no end to this conflict: any Bible-believing person knows that this conflict will only end with Jesus' arrival. However, you are also wrong: one side is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.

This site will help you determine which side cultivates hate, which side teaches its children to hate, which side rewards those who kill indiscriminately and which side whose leaders squirrel away millions of dollars in aid money into secret bank accounts so that they can live the lavish life in London and Paris:

http://www.palwatch.org

Are you able to access the above site, or does your country forbid you access?

FL

I can access it FL. But I do not think there is any merit to kill children. One side did it and that to me was evil but now both sides are doing it so both to me are evil. I hope you can see my position more clearly.

Neo,

It's always interesting to me to get a completely different viewpoint than my own. And you certainly bring a different view, because of where you live.

I just don't understand how you could say this:

The Jews have been so much persecuted in the past that their fears and insecurities are pretty obvious. I totally get that. But they are not a really a victim anymore...

Israel has almost the entire region who is hell bent on wiping them off the face of the earth, and will do anything to see Israel gone, and they're not a victim?

They are a tiny little country surrounded by Muslims who are attacking them constantly. That is the very epitome of a victim.

The Jews hate the Palestinians as much as the Palestinians hate them. But is it Hamas which is being targeted or Palestine?

Who controls Palestine?

RickD wrote:Neo,

It's always interesting to me to get a completely different viewpoint than my own. And you certainly bring a different view, because of where you live.

I just don't understand how you could say this:

The Jews have been so much persecuted in the past that their fears and insecurities are pretty obvious. I totally get that. But they are not a really a victim anymore...

Israel has almost the entire region who is hell bent on wiping them off the face of the earth, and will do anything to see Israel gone, and they're not a victim?

They are a tiny little country surrounded by Muslims who are attacking them constantly. That is the very epitome of a victim.

The Jews hate the Palestinians as much as the Palestinians hate them. But is it Hamas which is being targeted or Palestine?

Who controls Palestine?

Look at the destruction they can do, they certainly are not a victim anymore, they don't act like a victim. They are more disciplined, armed and ready for combat. As I said before they have been persecuted so much in the past that any assault on them today makes them a "victim". But I think they can out-manage all these Arab nations.

Civilians on both sides are victims nonetheless. Do you not think that the Palestinian people are a victim too?

Neo wrote:
Civilians on both sides are victims nonetheless. Do you not think that the Palestinian people are a victim too?

Absolutely. Especially when they're used by Hamas as human shields. Launching rockets at Israel, from churches, schools, hospitals, etc., just shows how hell bent Hamas is at destroying Israel.

As far as civilians are concerned, I agree with you. They are victims. But to say Israel, a country just trying to defend herself, and keep from being annihilated, is to blame for defending herself, I completely disagree with you.

Think of Israel as the kid at school who is getting rocks thrown at him by many of the students around him. Keep in mind, they are throwing rocks at him while hiding behind girls. Then he starts fighting back. Trying to fight off those throwing rocks at him. While defending himself, as hard as he tries to avoid hitting the girls, a few get hit because they are human shields. You'd blame him, and not the bullies/cowards using the girls as human shields?

RickD wrote:

Neo wrote:
Civilians on both sides are victims nonetheless. Do you not think that the Palestinian people are a victim too?

Absolutely. Especially when they're used by Hamas as human shields. Launching rockets at Israel, from churches, schools, hospitals, etc., just shows how hell bent Hamas is at destroying Israel.

As far as civilians are concerned, I agree with you. They are victims. But to say Israel, a country just trying to defend herself, and keep from being annihilated, is to blame for defending herself, I completely disagree with you.

Think of Israel as the kid at school who is getting rocks thrown at him by many of the students around him. Keep in mind, they are throwing rocks at him while hiding behind girls. Then he starts fighting back. Trying to fight off those throwing rocks at him. While defending himself, as hard as he tries to avoid hitting the girls, a few get hit because they are human shields. You'd blame him, and not the bullies/cowards using the girls as human shields?

You give Israel far too much credit. If Palestinians drop their arms do you think Israel will hug them? they want Palestinians gone. Do you note why these people took up arms in the first place, or why even the need to form Hamas even arose?

You see this as a one sided conflict, where its not. Israel is defending herself right now, on regular days they drive out people from homes, take lands.


The reality is if even one of them drops their guard the other will strike. The Pal's want Israel gone and Israel wants these Pal's gone. Because that is the only way to resolve this conflict when atleast one party is no more standing.

We have a saying in Urdu "Taali dou hath se bajti hai" (you need two hands to clap) which roughly translates to yours in English, which is - it takes two to tango.

And you really must realize the situation further, do you think Hamas asks these people to act as their shields? Like these people have a choice to relocate and just leave their homes they have lived in for hundreds of years?

When Talibans took refuge among civilians, a lot of people died but its not like they ask permission from these civilians, most of these civilians don't even realize and if they do they can only pray the drone doesn't strike them. The same is with every covert group which takes humans as shields.

If a Taliban terrorist entered into the NYSE and hid there among civilians, would you bomb it and accept the collateral damage of hundreds of your citizens as justified? No! but somehow it is acceptable when your own citizens are not in trouble. We all have these double standards of how precious human life is. Israel is no different. They accept the loss of innocent life as long as its not their people, americans also the do the same, all nations do this. Sad fact but that happens in war. So I don't and can't call it "right" its not. Its a dirty war tactic and Israel is not above this as they have shown.

Don't be mistaken. This isn't a war of good and evil. Its a fight for land, survival and anything goes. Israel butchered people when they took it the first time, after they got themselves slaughtered and the Romans, and the Muslims and the Christians and the Jews, again and again have all killed, murdered, raped, to keep this land in their possession.

Why do you expect the pal's would do any different? This isn't a realistic expectation.

And this is a non-resolvable conflict exactly because both parties won't stand down.

Neo,

One wants to exist as a nation. Everyone else wants her destroyed. It's really that simple when you boil it down. If the rockets stopped being lobbed into israel, Israel wouldn't have to defend herself. And human shields wouldn't be getting killed.

Living under the oppression of Islam as you do, I don't see how you fail to understand this. You do realize militant Islam is not a peaceful religion, don't you?

If a Taliban terrorist entered into the NYSE and hid there among civilians, would you bomb it and accept the collateral damage of hundreds of your citizens as justified? No! but somehow it is acceptable when your own citizens are not in trouble. We all have these double standards of how precious human life is. Israel is no different. They accept the loss of innocent life as long as its not their people, americans also the do the same, all nations do this. Sad fact but that happens in war. So I don't and can't call it "right" its not. Its a dirty war tactic and Israel is not above this as they have shown.

You couldn't be more wrong. It's well known here, that if a terrorist ever gets control of a commercial plane again, with the intention of crashing it into another building, it will be blown out of the sky by our own planes. Killing innocent people in the process.

Do you really think Palestine,(specifically those controlling Palestine) would be content with anything less than the total destruction of Israel?

And just to be clear. I have a soft heart for Israel all the same. And sad to say they are playing Hamas' game. They are doing precisely what Hamas wanted them to do. Hamas' goal is to to tarnish Israel, destroy it and they are doing it piece by piece. They wanted to show how barbaric the jews are and they succeeded, now they have won sympathies all over the world, where it should have been the opposite. No one sees Israel the victim in this conflict, the Pal's are the victims.

Israel needs to change Tactic, infiltrate Hamas as you would any organizations, corrupt it, destabilize it. Killing hundreds of children only strengthens Hamas back. They will have more support, more manpower, more funding. I think the archaic way to just kill the terrorist along with the hundreds beside them is barbaric and unhelpful. It has gained Israel nothing but bad rep and less political support.

I fail to see how you can fight covert guerilla warfare with massive bomb strikes? It doesn't work. You are planting the axe in your feet.

No one sees Israel the victim in this conflict, the Pal's are the victims.

Come over to the US. Plenty of us see Israel as the victim of terrorism. After 9/11, most Americans can see terrorism for what it is.

RickD wrote:Neo,

One wants to exist as a nation. Everyone else wants her destroyed. It's really that simple when you boil it down. If the rockets stopped being lobbed into israel, Israel wouldn't have to defend herself. And human shields wouldn't be getting killed.

Living under the oppression of Islam as you do, I don't see how you fail to understand this. You do realize militant Islam is not a peaceful religion, don't you?

I do realize it. 5 centuries ago we weren't so different. But not all Muslims are blood thirsty warriors. Millions are peace loving people who don't condone any type of violence and that is the majority of it.

You couldn't be more wrong. It's well known here, that if a terrorist ever gets control of a commercial plane again, with the intention of crashing it into another building, it will be blown out of the sky by our own planes. Killing innocent people in the process.

The day that happens, I would believe it. Right now I have only seen the exact opposite. But really it doesn't surprise me. I am sure they can do it. Its only that it has never been done before in the name of national security.

And to be fair, I think its a very last minute resort. No thinking sane person would be trigger happy on this. And if you can understand why your own govt. would be willing to sacrifice your own people for its larger benefit then perhaps you can also understand how Hamas sees Palestinians.

Do you really think Palestine,(specifically those controlling Palestine) would be content with anything less than the total destruction of Israel?

Not at all. They want to wipe off Israel.

But lets face it, what Israel is doing is not working. You killed ten terrorists and 400+ children, how that even works? As I said before change Tactic or you are just arming Hamas more.

RickD wrote:

No one sees Israel the victim in this conflict, the Pal's are the victims.

Come over to the US. Plenty of us see Israel as the victim of terrorism. After 9/11, most Americans can see terrorism for what it is.

Thank God for that. After America created Taliban, and sowed the s***storm that we are all paying the price for... really the American public needed to know this a long time ago.

And that just proves my point about double standards. America didn't think of them as terrorists when you had them break soviet union, it was only when they hit your country that they were called terrorists.

They wanted to show how barbaric the jews are and they succeeded, now they have won sympathies all over the world, where it should have been the opposite. No one sees Israel the victim in this conflict, the Pal's are the victims.

And precisely WHOM are we speaking of when we talk of Palestinians - poor people caught in the way of Hamas tactics, or Hamas itself? The fact that Hamas is sending rockets from civilian areas means that Israel is FORCED to attack precisely WHERE the attacks are coming from. And so whose fault is it that Israel must attack where they do?!!! HAMAS!!! Just because Hamas launches attacks from civilian areas doesn't mean that Israel can simply ignore them. It's sad and tragic, but that is precisely what they have to do. And they have delayed and delayed doing so. There comes a point in which this matter is about survival. To not return fire precisely to the area it comes from is to only embolden Hamas. And it is a sick thing that Israel is blamed for wanting to target areas THEY were FIRST attacked from. And if the poor of Gaza were able to have a an ability to ANONYMOUSLY vote, do you really think they would vote Hamas back in? HAMAS is the one bringing the death and destruction. Simple solution - the Palestianian leadership wants peace AND no attacks on themselves or civilian areas - THEN QUIT LAUNCHING ROCKETS INTO CIVILIAN ISRAEL!!! I mean, who has prolifically caused this - just look at the links of the detailed, THOUSANDS of attacks by Hamas. Hamas makes sure they keep the power by targeting ALL opposition. They were killing PLO politicians and supporters before this - and the PLO was about as bad.

Israel needs to change Tactic, infiltrate Hamas as you would any organizations, corrupt it, destabilize it.

Do you really think they haven't tried to do this?

Killing hundreds of children only strengthens Hamas back. They will have more support, more manpower, more funding. I think the archaic way to just kill the terrorist along with the hundreds beside them is barbaric and unhelpful.

And the alternative is?!!! For Israel to just ignore rocket attacks? Know what that would produce? Ever more and more deadly attacks and body counts, that's what! How many times has Israel given prior warning to areas they are going to target? How many times has Hamas done so? NEVER! Why? Because their goal is to kill as many Israelis as possible, whether babies and mothers sleeping in beds or not. Israel targets such areas because they have been presented no choice - you target the enemy WHERE the enemy is - that's military tactics 101. Hamas does so with not only a choice, but with a premeditated goal of eradication. Defensive aggression sometimes makes for very difficult choices. The Jews are only 70 years removed from another enemy trying to wipe them all out - been there, done that. They are not about to let this happen again - even if on a smaller scale (for NOW). And what is the great uniting factor between the Islamists, Hamas, etc and the Nazis ... hatred of the Jews, God's chosen. Think that's an accident? I sure don't!

It has gained Israel nothing but bad rep and less political support.

And since when has political support by the chattering masses helped Israel? The large Islamic countries have been funding radicals for years, and now they see events in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt and they see the deadly fruit of doing so. And so now they want to put the evil genie back in the bottle. They are more than glad to see Israel hammer Hamas - all the while keeping quiet and letting Israel take the fallout. And think the surrounding Islamic countries want to absorb and help the Palestian poor - ha! - they'd rather finance weapons of those targeting Israel - or at least that's what they've long done. For now, the other Islamist countries nearby merely want to stop the radicals.

Except Israel isn't hammering Hamas, its also targeting civilins, whether it likes it or not.

And Sure if you guys think that, its fine. I just don't see it that way, there are two sides to each story

I mean killing hundreds of children, nothing justifies it as right imo. Both sides have blood on their hands, innocent blood.

I wonder if the United States would be ok if the Brits per say, came back to re-take over their holdings in amerika and then after setting up shop having all the guns and cannons, then they would sit down to have their cup of tea and rule not just their portion of the colonies, but also rule by proxy all the rest of the land., and then after infiltrating every single aspect of so-called national self rule, they then would also set up all the rules for commerce and immigration that the so-called self-rule states can have., everything would not be so free for such people would it? and you would not be sitting pretty if the land you once roamed free in has been fenced in., i wonder just how much boils and festering that would create in your soul, so much that it would blind you with hate, i'll bet.

Lonewolf wrote:I wonder if the United States would be ok if the Brits per say, came back to re-take over their holdings in amerika and then after setting up shop having all the guns and cannons, then they would sit down to have their cup of tea and rule not just their portion of the colonies, but also rule by proxy all the rest of the land., and then after infiltrating every single aspect of so-called national self rule, they then would also set up all the rules for commerce and immigration that the so-called self-rule states can have., everything would not be so free for such people would it? and you would not be sitting pretty if the land you once roamed free in has been fenced in., i wonder just how much boils and festering that would create in your soul, so much that it would blind you with hate, i'll bet.

I wonder if the United States would be ok if the Brits per say, came back to re-take over their holdings in amerika (insinuated spelling!!!) and then after setting up shop having all the guns and cannons, then they would sit down to have their cup of tea and rule not just their portion of the colonies, but also rule by proxy all the rest of the land., and then after infiltrating every single aspect of so-called national self rule, they then would also set up all the rules for commerce and immigration that the so-called self-rule states can have., everything would not be so free for such people would it? and you would not be sitting pretty if the land you once roamed free in has been fenced in., i wonder just how much boils and festering that would create in your soul, so much that it would blind you with hate, i'll bet.

Well, if you are trying to extrapolate this issue to what you apparently consider Israel occupying:

1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)

4) Whether one likes what the UN-decided lines of Israel's modern borders, they did not conquer this land by aggression. And other lands that were RE-united for Greater Israel happened after the Arabs attacked Israel. And they LOST such wars. So is Israel supposed to give up land and margins of safety - in a VERY small geographic area - fully knowing what she knows about the surrounding Arabs dedicated to her downfall?

5) By far, most living around Israel were born after or came of adult age AFTER the initial borders were decided. So, do you think one is morally justified by killing and terrorism because they insist their grandfathers were screwed over by Israel's grandfathers. The people who made those decisions are, almost to a one, LONG dead. And so you think people today have the right to try to KILL, MAIM and DESTROY people allive TODAY - people that have nothing to do with the historic supposed land slights - because of things their predecessors did to others' predecessors. So, if I'm ticked off at something your grandfather did to my grandfather, and that gives me the moral right to go into someone's home and butchure them with knives and machine guns? How will any people with such views ever make peace? Only by FORCE will they make peace. And so that is what Israel must do to such a determined group dedicated to her demise.

Truthfully, I sincerely care about innocent people being displaced and killed. It breaks my heart. It doesn't matter their nationality or religion, it is deeply disturbing to me. But I also know what must be done to survive evil. And make no mistake about it, Hamas, the PLO, ISIS, Islamists, Al Qaeda, Taliban - these are evil entities that only constantly plot to take down Israel or things, people and places connected to the West. And millions under the thumb of such groups have been brainwashed into thinking unilateral and unnecessary aggression and violence is a moral right. And so say of such evil men, if they die, they sow their own destruction, and the blood of those innocents amidst them are on THEIR hands. These entities are no less evil than the Nazis or the brutality of the Romans. And so they must be resisted by whatever that may require - and often that means innocents will lose lives. The alternative is to allow evil to triumph.

It is incredible to me how many Christians have very one-sided and ill-informed viewpoints about this situation.