Evidence for God from Science

Lonewolf wrote:right, understand what you're saying, but -and I'm talking Christianity in general- believes that a Muslim, or a Buddhist and non-Christians are all doomed., without hope., without salvation., is that right, or am I wrong?

Jesus said: I am the door.

John 10:9-16 ESV

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

OK, scratch baptism out of the whole equation, that is not what I meant to say. Excuse me for my lack of being able to articulate and convey the proper message in the question.

If we mainly and/or solely believe that God saves only those who in this day and age consider of the Christian faith, whether evangelical, catholic, orthodox, etc, etc. But those of other faiths and religions -although their faith may be in God- are in error and therefore not saved because they don't understand things as Chistians do, have we them become legalistic with our understanding of salvation, thus limiting God?

I understand that Jesus is the only redeemer, and wholeheartedly believe that, but yet I can't help but think like a universalist of sorts, that His sacrifice covered all, and that it is those workers of iniquity the ones that reject His redemption.

Is conscious knowledge of Christ's death and resurrection for sin and explicit faith in Christ necessary for anyone to become a recipient of the benefits of Christ's atoning work and so be saved?

UNLESS somehow Jesus deals with some in a way that we can't see - and before death (as there is no second chance), then one must hear and respond to the Gospel message, as this sequence is our only Scriptural example, post Jesus Resurrection. We can speculate, but we can only know for sure what Scripture teaches about this issue.

Lonewolf wrote:OK, scratch baptism out of the whole equation, that is not what I meant to say. Excuse me for my lack of being able to articulate and convey the proper message in the question.

If we mainly and/or solely believe that God saves only those who in this day and age consider of the Christian faith, whether evangelical, catholic, orthodox, etc, etc. But those of other faiths and religions -although their faith may be in God- are in error and therefore not saved because they don't understand things as Chistians do, have we them become legalistic with our understanding of salvation, thus limiting God?

I understand that Jesus is the only redeemer, and wholeheartedly believe that, but yet I can't help but think like a universalist of sorts, that His sacrifice covered all, and that it is those workers of iniquity the ones that reject His redemption.

Christ's atoning sacrifice is for all, but not all will accept it. To imply covers allis used in today's market in the same manner as 'leading the witness' to assume all are universally saved and have no need of even knowing Christ, who he is, and what he did. Recall, that Jesus did state in the gospels accounts a principle that he never knew some, which by the way destroy's the tenets of religious Universalism.

In today's language, it is better to state that Jesus' atoning sacrifice is for everybody, but not all will accept it, as that is more accurate way to say what you are saying so no one can twist words.

Lonewolf wrote:Is conscious knowledge of Christ's death and resurrection for sin and explicit faith in Christ necessary for anyone to become a recipient of the benefits of Christ's atoning work and so be saved?

Yes... (the gospel accounts, Acts and all the Apostle's letters demonstrate this clearly in the NT and the OT points to this as well too).

This presents a problem in that so few even know what sin is these days and the reason why - the cross...

I do not know many churches that teach on this these days, there are a few, but by and large, most choose a 'happy gospel of slap happy blessings using a non-threatening approach' to present the gospel method. Very rarely do you hear messages on sin, judgment, and righteousness/justification so much so that most believers do not grasp what these mean. Instead we hear, Christ died and rose again to make you happy, wealthy, wise, and problem free. So many drift away from faith and end up in apostasy as the Letters form Peter and Paul warn would happen near the end of days.
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Lonewolf wrote:OK, scratch baptism out of the whole equation, that is not what I meant to say. Excuse me for my lack of being able to articulate and convey the proper message in the question.

If we mainly and/or solely believe that God saves only those who in this day and age consider of the Christian faith, whether evangelical, catholic, orthodox, etc, etc. But those of other faiths and religions -although their faith may be in God- are in error and therefore not saved because they don't understand things as Chistians do, have we them become legalistic with our understanding of salvation, thus limiting God?

I understand that Jesus is the only redeemer, and wholeheartedly believe that, but yet I can't help but think like a universalist of sorts, that His sacrifice covered all, and that it is those workers of iniquity the ones that reject His redemption.

Is conscious knowledge of Christ's death and resurrection for sin and explicit faith in Christ necessary for anyone to become a recipient of the benefits of Christ's atoning work and so be saved?

There are certain views on this, not all of them agree of course.
The only one to really address the issue in terms of "what happens" may have been John ( Although Paul does comment that even the pagans know what is right because God is in all, even if they don't know it ( paraphrasing).
John states:
John 5:24-29

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

It MAY be interpreted that those that believe in Christ and His word will NOT be judged and will have eternal life and those that do not believe, they will be judged on their works:
Those that did good to a resurrected life and those that did bad to judgment.

In short, believe in Christ and you will be saved from judgment, don't believe and your fate is based on what you did and why you did it.

Lonewolf wrote:OK, scratch baptism out of the whole equation, that is not what I meant to say. Excuse me for my lack of being able to articulate and convey the proper message in the question.

If we mainly and/or solely believe that God saves only those who in this day and age consider of the Christian faith, whether evangelical, catholic, orthodox, etc, etc. But those of other faiths and religions -although their faith may be in God- are in error and therefore not saved because they don't understand things as Chistians do, have we them become legalistic with our understanding of salvation, thus limiting God?

I understand that Jesus is the only redeemer, and wholeheartedly believe that, but yet I can't help but think like a universalist of sorts, that His sacrifice covered all, and that it is those workers of iniquity the ones that reject His redemption.

Is conscious knowledge of Christ's death and resurrection for sin and explicit faith in Christ necessary for anyone to become a recipient of the benefits of Christ's atoning work and so be saved?

This is why soteriology is important. The Bible teaches that Christ paid for the sins of the world. So, eternal life is not a matter of whether one's sins are paid for. Eternal life is a matter of righteousness. And righteousness is received by trusting in Christ. There are no limits to who can be reached with the Gospel. Jesus said that those who believe have life. They have passed from death to life. (John 5:24) However, whoever does not believe stands condemned. (John 3:18)
A muslim can place their trust in Christ. A Buddhist. There is no difference and the Gospel is freely offered to all. So, perhaps there is some truth in what you say. I don't see God's hand to short to reach anyone. I find it unfathomable that if someone were simply born in the right culture they would have believed, and in turn they are condemned because they were born in the wrong culture. I hear this objection all the time. Oddly, from people who reject Christ, yet grew up in a culture where Christianity is dominant. There are plenty who know of Christ's sacrifice and mockingly reject. So, I don't think there are a bunch of people going to Hell simply because they were born into a culture where learning about Jesus was impossible or even illegal.
Jesus is the truth. And those who reject the truth reject Christ. If someone desires truth (spiritually) they will seek and find. I don't care if they are born in the most godless or oppressive country.
Still, this is a far cry from universalism.

This is why soteriology is important..

soteriological as in Arminianism?

The Atonement is qualitatively adequate for all men, "yet that no one actually enjoys [experiences] this forgiveness of sins, except the believer..." and thus is limited to only those who trust in Christ.

It is always important to remember that Christianity is a religion of CHOICE.
In a nutshell:
The OT writers believed (typically) that salvation was based on following the commandments of the Law.
Islam teaches that salvation is base don submitting to Allah.
Christianity states that salvation is about CHOOSING to believe and put your faith in Jesus Christ as lord and saviour.

PaulS wrote:
The OT writers believed (typically) that salvation was based on following the commandments of the Law.

Do you have proof for this?

Lemme get this straight...the OT authors, who were lead by the Holy Spirit when writing scripture, believed in a gospel of works?

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
The OT writers believed (typically) that salvation was based on following the commandments of the Law.

Do you have proof for this?

Well, you can read the OT...
It doesn't mean that belief didn't play a part in OT teachings, of course it did, but you won't find any mention of God's grace like we do in the NT, for oblivious reasons.
There are over 600 laws in the OT, rules and regulations of how to worship YHWH and how to behave and what to do and, from my understanding, OT Jews (like the Pharisees) believed that one must follow the commandments given by God to be saved, to be righteous under God.
Although "salvation" is probably not the right term to use in regards to Judaism.

There's no mention of Abraham being justified by faith?

RickD wrote:There's no mention of Abraham being justified by faith?

Of course, but it's not an either/ or thing is it?

You can't read the OT and not come away with the notion that belief + works = "salvation".
There is a "laundry list" of works / laws that are viewed as a must to be deemed righteous in the eyes of God.
That said, it should be noted that even in the OT works WITHOUT faith are not valued as highly as works FROM faith.

RickD wrote:There's no mention of Abraham being justified by faith?

Faith with trust, absolute, unquavering trust that is only born through absolute love is what justified Abraham.
He could have very easily said 'geez, sorry I just can't do that, sacrifice my own son'. Still had faith in God, but not absolute trust to obey Him.
It wasnt really by faith alone, he could have said no, and still had faith, a belief in God as creator and Lord. By his obedience he proved His absolute trust, his 'works' was a testament to his level of faith.
It was Abrahams faith and obedience intertwined that justified him before God. His faith with no obedience would not have done so, and he never would have been obedient without such a measure of faith.

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Regarding and adding to others and Melanie just mentioned...

There are about nine Greek words that all share the same Greek root word. These nine words are translated in our English bibles as righteousness, righteous, justified, justification, ordinance, ought, justify, judgments etc and etc...

These nine words are expressions of the Root Word formed as as compound words or with prepositions added to these in various ways (prefix /Suffix). Without grasping that these words all share the same Greek root word - the root word's basic meaning is, in most cases, lost in translation. That Greek root word is pronounced Dikee; gen. (Greek Strongs 1349) a fem. noun.

In Classical secular Greek it means: the ability to live according to social standards appropriately – follow orderly conduct that does not violate the standards of conduct and social behavior. If violated ensuing judgment is enforced. It is expected behavior or conformity, not according to one's own standard, but according to an imposed standard with prescribed punishment for nonconformity. It refers to legitimate customs and rules.

Judaic – Christian usage – According to Vines Dictionary - in old English was spelled right-wise-ness meaning Walking right in a wise manner guided by Godly wisdom in the affairs of life. This expresses this biblical usage of the word – Living a changed life under God’s wise guidance toward those around us. In other words - walking right wisely before God and man.

Right, Righteous, Justified, Justification, Justify, are all combined with Dikee and each word expressed different shades of the meaning of Dikee with this ruling caveat attached to all shades of meaning: to walk wisely before God and man – very simple. However, we make it too darn complex.

Below is from an expanded sermon outline I put together for folks to use as a bible study as it includes these nine words...

MP 1 sec Let’s look at these Nine Word Examples:

1- Greek word dikaiosune (G-1343) used 91 times - Vines explains its meaning: "the character or quality of being right or just"; it was formerly spelled "rightwiseness," which clearly expresses the meaning.”

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NASB

Faith is to produce a righteous life – walking in a right wise manner guided by God’s wisdom from above.

How did Abraham walk? What mistakes did he make? How did he walk rightly before God and man - answer - by Faith - are you?

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true (right-wise-ness) and holiness. NKJV


2-Next - dikaiokrisía G1341; gen. dikaiokrisías, fem. noun from two Greek words - díkaios , just, righteous, and krísis, judgment. Meaning: A judgment which renders justice to produces what is right…So that some can walk right before God and man and for those that reject this will be removed justly …Used in… Rom 2:5 verses 6-8 explain further…

Rom 2:5-8, But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. NASB


3- dikaios Adjective (G1342) refers to the fulfillment of duties that are in accordance with living right before God and man (or in God’s case God doing what is right). Used 81 times translated as just, righteous

1 Pet 3:12, "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."


4- dikaioo (G1344) used 40 times as justified, justifier, acquitted , vindicated, etc, meaning " to be justified, "to declare to be righteous, to pronounce one righteous … in order to bring out that one can walk right before God and man…

God declares us Justified, so This word will work in us … to bring out that one can walk right before God and man…

NOTE -- Isaiah 55:11 - says - so shall my word be … perform what I send it for… He declares us righteous - - since that is so - how are you living and what do your struggles reveal about this? Answer God will perform his word in you and therefore struggles happen - out with the bad... Walk less in the flesh and more by the Spirit..

Declared righteous by God implements the Purpose of atonement which is to walk in newness of life reconciled back to God, adopted into his house, no longer enemies… justified to live a new life right before God and man..

See how the word is used in this verse:

1 Co 6:11 …But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. NKJV


Sec [C] Are you getting the picture yet?

Next, 5. dikaioma (G1345) used 13 times translated as ordinances, righteousness, judgments - is the concrete verdict of "righteousness" it is a declaration that a person or thing is righteous, when used as ordinances it means the legal requirements that guides one to walk right before God and man, it is the product and result of being justified by God... So that one learns how to walk right before God and man…

Rom 8:4-5 …so that the requirement (G1345) of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Recall that the verdict of the Law in Romans 7 was simply to expose and reveal sin... The law cannot enforce one to walk right before God and man, instead, man twist the law to justify remaining a thief for another year till... Result producing a 'Sin that Grace abounds' model to the law... The law was our tutor to bring us to Jesus' work on the cross and release of the Holy Spirit within to govern us right-wise-ly (before God and man)

6- dikaios Adverb (G1346) used 5 times and translated as righteously, ought, justly, upright: It means – to live Justly, conformable to justice, honestly, live by integrity, without injuring anyone, as it is fit, proper, right…to walk before God and man

1 Co 15:34 Come back to your senses as you ought (G1346), and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame. NIV

So how does one cease from sinning those repeating sins? Well by Grace….

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age…NIV

(Note the 1 John 1:9 way – eventually you will be free of it when you come to the end of self, then it is on to the next blockage)

Illustration: The - holic

What are you alco--holic too? Bad manners - speech? habits? Bitterness? seeking approval? power and control? Addictions?


7-dikaíosis; gen. dikaioseos, (G1347) it means the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal" - it is used only twice in the Romans, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt ...So that one now can walk right before God and man… never leave out the root word definition in any of the words - add it in as you read...

Rom 4:25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. (So that we can now walk right before God and man)

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (So that we can now walk right before God and man)


8- dikastḗs G1348; gen. dikastoú, masc. noun meaning: one who maintains Dikee and equity – a Judge. They bring to bear the rule of law, to punish or set free. If set free, the purpose being for the perpetrator is to live a changed grateful life before God and man… If found guilty and sentenced - condemned to live with the ungrateful, unchanging criminals…

Acts 7:35 "This Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO MADE YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?' is the one whom God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the angel who appeared to him in the thorn bush. 36 "This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness for forty years." NASB

Moses led the people to God, whom led them out from slavery where they were judged - separated... Just as the word means. The new generation entered the promise land and agreed with Joshua to do what after the entered?

End of Bible Study notes ... the conclusion and intro I did not post...

So as you read these words - apply the basic root word definition to them and may the Lord help you to see the deepness of what is being said.
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Now bad to the question - Do we all limit God?

The answer is absolute yes! Even in basic doctrines this is accomplished.

If I am hearing Lonewolf correctly, the question has more to do with the differences between Calvinism and Armininism regarding election/salvation and trying to be non-threatening to either side. Both sides, well, limit God...
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Both sides, well, limit God...

Absolutely!