Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:Melanie,

What I find odd is this, how a person would not deny someone accused of a crime the right to use his/her testimony and whatever evidence to prove their respective innocence. Yet, people like Outlaw demands that God is guilty of great crimes and yet deny him the right to use his own words (the bible) and evidence? Amazing, isn't it?

Instead, these folks are like the Pharisees who did this long ago to Jesus by taking selected words from the bible out of context to prove God guilty and do what they can to bring false witnesses against him while demanding he confess blasphemy against humanity so they can put God to death. They do this by denying God the right to speak and present evidence contrary to their charges. Then have the gall to say sin does not exist so they can get away with doing this! How is that just? Not at all - and proves that the sin of unjustness, deception, vindictive hate, is alive and well in such folks.

If a man was wrongly convicted of a crime and people went through the record of all his words spoken, and deeds, then misconstrued them to prove he is guilty of a crime he never committed and then not permitting him to use evidence and the context of his own words that will clear his name, that would be unjust would it not? Yet, folks still do so with God and the bible just as they did to Jesus long ago - nothing has changed.

Sin is real...

outlaw wrote:Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists.

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-
-

Hey outlaw,
I did answer your first question and I didn't use scripture. You may not have agreed or liked my answer but you have to understand that if you are asking someone to prove something to you that you are refusing to give any validation to, then it's really just a big fat waste of time. If someone asks another to prove a scientific theory to them, they have to first believe that science exists in the first place otherwise it's kinda pointless. I and twenty others can respond, your step father can exhaust himself, you can email 50 pastors and priests, but you are asking them to reconcile something with you that you can't even reconcile within yourself.

People spend their entire lives either running towards God or running away from Him. Those that are running in the opposite direction, often claim to be atheist but it's interesting the energy they spend arguing against something that should really have zero impact on them, and little interest. But they are angry. Confused. They speak against God, whilst claiming He doesn't exist, it's quite the oxymoron. That is why I think for many people, I'm not sure if you are one of them, that when you scratch just below the surface there is a whole lot more going on. When you get passed the anger and resentment there is so often a reason. You are not going to all this trouble to prove to us that we are wrong, you want someone to prove to YOU maybe not that God exists because I think deep down you must already know this otherwise you wouldn't go to so much trouble, but what your really asking here, I think because of your experiences, is for someone to prove the fairness of God to you. Sometimes it comes down to this feeling of not liking someone telling you what to do, how to behave, you have to be just like 'this' to conform. You know you don't really have to, conform that is. I have always had issues with authority, I very much was along the lines of 'who are you to tell me how to think, behave, act' I have also in the past been really angry at God, questioning everything, pushing against Him, because deep down I knew He was real, but I felt really let down, ripped off and hurt and disappointed. So I directed my anger towards Him, how could you send all these people to Hell? How is it fair to expect so much from people? I worked through it all and found a Father who was none of things that I had accused Him of in my anger.

Edit: sorry father in law

melanie wrote:

outlaw wrote:

melanie wrote:We all sin.
It's inevitable.
But we can be saved regardless of our sinless state.
Because of Gods sacrifice.
That's not crazy, that's love.
It's about throwing oneself infront of death to save others.
It's putting ourselves up to be beaten instead of another, taking every blow to protect the people behind us.
It's having nails hammered into you, being wounded and cut.
We didn't do that, Jesus did.
God was beaten up, cut, bruised and killed.
Not out of an egocentric desire to be praised,
But a selfless desire to save mankind.

We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place.
If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.
God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.
Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

If god creates the game, the rules, and all the players, if its omniscient, omnipotent why does he then get any praise for bending any its rules for the players?
If god can create a heaven presumably a place free of suffering, where we have freewill but never feel the need to do bad things then why not just create us in that place to begin with if it truely loved us and wanted us with it in heaven?
The fact that it didnt but had the ability to means its responsible for every bit of suffering in this world.
If god can make it a rule than only humans with free will can be happy then he could of also made it a rule that only robots can be happy and then created us unable to sin and made us so we think were choosing freely. He is all powerful right? this wouldn't be beyond him.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to be punished instead?
if you answered no because it would be immoral then you understand the morality of the question, then why is it you'd expect your children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to your own?
Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?
Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who?
If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

You see sin is really sin even if a person doesn't believe in God. You can choose to not call it sin, call it 'wrongdoing' 'immoral' whatever but perhaps your getting hung up on the word itself not the implications of the word. People who do not believe in God still teach their children to not steal, not lie, not kill. We would still teach our teenagers and young adults to not 'mess around' with their mates girlfriend or boyfriend, why? Cause you just don't, it's simply just not the right way to act. Respecting others is admirable. Being mean is not. We choose how to live our lives. How to act. That is free will. God gave us free will not as a pretty sure way to get most of us to sin and into hell but out of love. For quality of life. In the same way I teach my children how to act but I know that they won't behave how I want them to all the time. I want children with free will, able to mistakes, in error so many times so they can look back and grow. I know some parents that are far to hard on their children, the kids are scared of them, they don't step a foot wrong out of fear. I feel really sorry for those kids. I would much prefer my sometimes 'naughty' kids, who sometimes do as I ask out of respect never out of fear, and sometimes they use their will and do the opposite.
Christians sin. Non christians sin. God loves us all anyway. To not have a personal relationship with God so often causes people to think of Him as this great big nasty God, demanding everyone to not sin, demanding praise or else we are all going to hell. The church hasn't helped much in that regard. When you get to know God as your Father then everything you thought you knew, have been told or taught about Him falls to the wayside. You see Him as He really is.
He teaches us to not sin for the same reason we teach our children, to protect them. We would never say to our children live how ever you want, lie, cheat, steal, treat people poorly, walk over the top of them, take what ever you want from people, physically, emotionally, materialistically, sexually. A race, a person, a society, human kind would fall into anarchy if everyone behaved like this. God gave us rules to live by, not because he is some type of egotistical dictator, but because He loves us, He wants to protect us, like we instill what is 'right' in our children, to protect them, not to rule over them.
God sent Jesus here because He wanted to save us, but He also wanted to understand us and wanted us to understand Him. Have you ever had that feeling when someone is saying something and your like "yes, I get exactly what your saying" because you have had a similar experience, feeling or thought. God came here through His son in the flesh and walked around with us. He cried, felt fear, anger, sorrow. Faced temptation, saw our weaknesses and sacrificed Himself for us. Jesus was going around doing all kinds of miraculous things, saying things that were so profound with an authority outside of mans and man didn't like it. They were jealous of His majesty. Of His wisdom. Of they way people flocked to Him and worshipped Him. Jesus could have used wrath and vengeance to overcome them, taken Himself off that cross and kicked some serious butt but He didn't. He even had a moment when He asked His Father 'do we really have to do this?' God gave us His son so that He could through His sacrifice save us. Sacrifice is giving something up of extreme value for the considerations of others. We hear of heroic acts all the time, of someone giving up their life to save another. There is no greater sign of sacrifice than losing your life to save another, even in this world. That is what He did. Gave up His life not just to save another but to save all of us. He threw Himself infront of the bus, He dove in the water when someone was sinking, he took the bullet, he jumped infront the sword, He stood infront of all us and shielded us from all oncoming attacks. He hung up on that cross, spread out His arms and forever put a barrier between us and death.
That is why I will praise and worship and love Him everyday. Nothing at all to do with fear but everything to do with LOVE.

Your not understanding properly, I'm simply saying you firstly have to prove god is there before the word sin has any meaning, i can say I read in a book that sin is breaking mickey mouses laws but who cares! if mickey mouse is just a character in a book.
So realise that saying things like 'we all sin' its inevitable, means nothing until you can prove the thing in which we are breaking its rules exists in the first place.

melanie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Melanie,

What I find odd is this, how a person would not deny someone accused of a crime the right to use his/her testimony and whatever evidence to prove their respective innocence. Yet, people like Outlaw demands that God is guilty of great crimes and yet deny him the right to use his own words (the bible) and evidence? Amazing, isn't it?

Instead, these folks are like the Pharisees who did this long ago to Jesus by taking selected words from the bible out of context to prove God guilty and do what they can to bring false witnesses against him while demanding he confess blasphemy against humanity so they can put God to death. They do this by denying God the right to speak and present evidence contrary to their charges. Then have the gall to say sin does not exist so they can get away with doing this! How is that just? Not at all - and proves that the sin of unjustness, deception, vindictive hate, is alive and well in such folks.

If a man was wrongly convicted of a crime and people went through the record of all his words spoken, and deeds, then misconstrued them to prove he is guilty of a crime he never committed and then not permitting him to use evidence and the context of his own words that will clear his name, that would be unjust would it not? Yet, folks still do so with God and the bible just as they did to Jesus long ago - nothing has changed.

Sin is real...

outlaw wrote:Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists.

-
-
-

Hey outlaw,
I did answer your first question and I didn't use scripture. You may not have agreed or liked my answer but you have to understand that if you are asking someone to prove something to you that you are refusing to give any validation to, then it's really just a big fat waste of time. If someone asks another to prove a scientific theory to them, they have to first believe that science exists in the first place otherwise it's kinda pointless. I and twenty others can respond, your step father can exhaust himself, you can email 50 pastors and priests, but you are asking them to reconcile something with you that you can't even reconcile within yourself.

People spend their entire lives either running towards God or running away from Him. Those that are running in the opposite direction, often claim to be atheist but it's interesting the energy they spend arguing against something that should really have zero impact on them, and little interest. But they are angry. Confused. They speak against God, whilst claiming He doesn't exist, it's quite the oxymoron. That is why I think for many people, I'm not sure if you are one of them, that when you scratch just below the surface there is a whole lot more going on. When you get passed the anger and resentment there is so often a reason. You are not going to all this trouble to prove to us that we are wrong, you want someone to prove to YOU maybe not that God exists because I think deep down you must already know this otherwise you wouldn't go to so much trouble, but what your really asking here, I think because of your experiences, is for someone to prove the fairness of God to you. Sometimes it comes down to this feeling of not liking someone telling you what to do, how to behave, you have to be just like 'this' to conform. You know you don't really have to, conform that is. I have always had issues with authority, I very much was along the lines of 'who are you to tell me how to think, behave, act' I have also in the past been really angry at God, questioning everything, pushing against Him, because deep down I knew He was real, but I felt really let down, ripped off and hurt and disappointed. So I directed my anger towards Him, how could you send all these people to Hell? How is it fair to expect so much from people? I worked through it all and found a Father who was none of things that I had accused Him of in my anger.

Edit: sorry father in law

Why are you assuming I'm angry at god I get the same comment from everyone I ask these questions to, I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation that's it everyone seems to be able to tell me how it doesn't work but no one seems to be able to explain it in a way that makes sense and I emphasize makes sense.

outlaw wrote:I'm simply saying you firstly have to prove god is there before the word sin has any meaning...

It is impossible to prove to an atheist that God exists! I was raised a pure-breed atheist and I knew that!

As for ''the plan of Salvation'' you can forget about understanding that as well. What kind of mixed-up atheist are you anyway? Are you one of those ''agnostic atheist'' hybrids that are now so popular???

FL

melanie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Melanie,

What I find odd is this, how a person would not deny someone accused of a crime the right to use his/her testimony and whatever evidence to prove their respective innocence. Yet, people like Outlaw demands that God is guilty of great crimes and yet deny him the right to use his own words (the bible) and evidence? Amazing, isn't it?

Instead, these folks are like the Pharisees who did this long ago to Jesus by taking selected words from the bible out of context to prove God guilty and do what they can to bring false witnesses against him while demanding he confess blasphemy against humanity so they can put God to death. They do this by denying God the right to speak and present evidence contrary to their charges. Then have the gall to say sin does not exist so they can get away with doing this! How is that just? Not at all - and proves that the sin of unjustness, deception, vindictive hate, is alive and well in such folks.

If a man was wrongly convicted of a crime and people went through the record of all his words spoken, and deeds, then misconstrued them to prove he is guilty of a crime he never committed and then not permitting him to use evidence and the context of his own words that will clear his name, that would be unjust would it not? Yet, folks still do so with God and the bible just as they did to Jesus long ago - nothing has changed.

Sin is real...

outlaw wrote:Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists.

-
-
-

Hey outlaw,
I did answer your first question and I didn't use scripture. You may not have agreed or liked my answer but you have to understand that if you are asking someone to prove something to you that you are refusing to give any validation to, then it's really just a big fat waste of time. If someone asks another to prove a scientific theory to them, they have to first believe that science exists in the first place otherwise it's kinda pointless. I and twenty others can respond, your step father can exhaust himself, you can email 50 pastors and priests, but you are asking them to reconcile something with you that you can't even reconcile within yourself.

People spend their entire lives either running towards God or running away from Him. Those that are running in the opposite direction, often claim to be atheist but it's interesting the energy they spend arguing against something that should really have zero impact on them, and little interest. But they are angry. Confused. They speak against God, whilst claiming He doesn't exist, it's quite the oxymoron. That is why I think for many people, I'm not sure if you are one of them, that when you scratch just below the surface there is a whole lot more going on. When you get passed the anger and resentment there is so often a reason. You are not going to all this trouble to prove to us that we are wrong, you want someone to prove to YOU maybe not that God exists because I think deep down you must already know this otherwise you wouldn't go to so much trouble, but what your really asking here, I think because of your experiences, is for someone to prove the fairness of God to you. Sometimes it comes down to this feeling of not liking someone telling you what to do, how to behave, you have to be just like 'this' to conform. You know you don't really have to, conform that is. I have always had issues with authority, I very much was along the lines of 'who are you to tell me how to think, behave, act' I have also in the past been really angry at God, questioning everything, pushing against Him, because deep down I knew He was real, but I felt really let down, ripped off and hurt and disappointed. So I directed my anger towards Him, how could you send all these people to Hell? How is it fair to expect so much from people? I worked through it all and found a Father who was none of things that I had accused Him of in my anger.

Edit: sorry father in law

No you don't have to believe that science exists to prove a scientific theory, you test something and get the same result every time then it becomes a theory, that requires no pre existing belief.
Science doesn't have an ancient text book that makes claims without any evidence to support them, that science exists, no one believes science because a book claims that science exists. Science is demonstrable and testafiable to not believe science would be to not believe your own eyes and your own understanding.
I don't want to get into the science v religion stuff but I couldn't let that pass.

outlaw wrote:

melanie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Melanie,

What I find odd is this, how a person would not deny someone accused of a crime the right to use his/her testimony and whatever evidence to prove their respective innocence. Yet, people like Outlaw demands that God is guilty of great crimes and yet deny him the right to use his own words (the bible) and evidence? Amazing, isn't it?

Instead, these folks are like the Pharisees who did this long ago to Jesus by taking selected words from the bible out of context to prove God guilty and do what they can to bring false witnesses against him while demanding he confess blasphemy against humanity so they can put God to death. They do this by denying God the right to speak and present evidence contrary to their charges. Then have the gall to say sin does not exist so they can get away with doing this! How is that just? Not at all - and proves that the sin of unjustness, deception, vindictive hate, is alive and well in such folks.

If a man was wrongly convicted of a crime and people went through the record of all his words spoken, and deeds, then misconstrued them to prove he is guilty of a crime he never committed and then not permitting him to use evidence and the context of his own words that will clear his name, that would be unjust would it not? Yet, folks still do so with God and the bible just as they did to Jesus long ago - nothing has changed.

Sin is real...

outlaw wrote:Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists.

-
-
-

Hey outlaw,
I did answer your first question and I didn't use scripture. You may not have agreed or liked my answer but you have to understand that if you are asking someone to prove something to you that you are refusing to give any validation to, then it's really just a big fat waste of time. If someone asks another to prove a scientific theory to them, they have to first believe that science exists in the first place otherwise it's kinda pointless. I and twenty others can respond, your step father can exhaust himself, you can email 50 pastors and priests, but you are asking them to reconcile something with you that you can't even reconcile within yourself.

People spend their entire lives either running towards God or running away from Him. Those that are running in the opposite direction, often claim to be atheist but it's interesting the energy they spend arguing against something that should really have zero impact on them, and little interest. But they are angry. Confused. They speak against God, whilst claiming He doesn't exist, it's quite the oxymoron. That is why I think for many people, I'm not sure if you are one of them, that when you scratch just below the surface there is a whole lot more going on. When you get passed the anger and resentment there is so often a reason. You are not going to all this trouble to prove to us that we are wrong, you want someone to prove to YOU maybe not that God exists because I think deep down you must already know this otherwise you wouldn't go to so much trouble, but what your really asking here, I think because of your experiences, is for someone to prove the fairness of God to you. Sometimes it comes down to this feeling of not liking someone telling you what to do, how to behave, you have to be just like 'this' to conform. You know you don't really have to, conform that is. I have always had issues with authority, I very much was along the lines of 'who are you to tell me how to think, behave, act' I have also in the past been really angry at God, questioning everything, pushing against Him, because deep down I knew He was real, but I felt really let down, ripped off and hurt and disappointed. So I directed my anger towards Him, how could you send all these people to Hell? How is it fair to expect so much from people? I worked through it all and found a Father who was none of things that I had accused Him of in my anger.

Edit: sorry father in law

Why are you assuming I'm angry at god I get the same comment from everyone I ask these questions to, I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation that's it everyone seems to be able to tell me how it doesn't work but no one seems to be able to explain it in a way that makes sense and I emphasize makes sense.

Interesting how everyone keeps telling you the same thing, perhaps your tone of language reflects it.
You are jumping all over the place.

I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation

His plan but I thought you said he didn't exist?

[You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. /quote]

I'm simply saying you firstly have to prove god is there

You want someone to prove to you what you are having problems reconciling with yourself

Prove sin!

prove it without using the bible to back up itself

prove that the God spoken about in the book is anything more than a chatracter in the book, without useing the bible to prove the bible

Outlaw nobody has to prove anything to you. You don't have to believe. If you don't think God exists go about your life. But it's not quite that cut and dry is it? Now your saying that your just trying to figure out His plan. The plan of someone that doesn't exist? Or He does exist, you just want someone to prove it to you. It doesn't work that way. That is why it is a belief outlaw based on faith. I could tell you many different ways God has 'proved' Himself to be real in my experience but we both know that's not what your looking for.
I will say it again, I think you do believe, you just don't know how to tie it all in together. Which isn't being helped by your frustration, resentment and defensiveness.

Gods plan BTW for salvation really is pretty simple. Love and trust Him, that builds over time and I will use scripture because it's salvation in a nutshell John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Even sinners, and ratbags, and outcasts, and outlaws

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

outlaw wrote:I'm simply saying you firstly have to prove god is there before the word sin has any meaning...

It is impossible to prove to an atheist that God exists! I was raised a pure-breed atheist and I knew that!

As for ''the plan of Salvation'' you can forget about understanding that as well. What kind of mixed-up atheist are you anyway? Are you one of those ''agnostic atheist'' hybrids that are now so popular???

FL

Gee you sound like an angry ant
Why do you assume I'm an atheist?
Why do you assume I can't understand the salvation plan?
If you understand it, would you care to explain your understanding of it to me?
While you mentioned not being able to prove god to an atheist, why do you dismiss the claims in the other holy books of their gods?
Whats special evidence do you have for your god?


I'm on this forum to try to understand the plan of salvation and I get someone like you who straight out tells me I can forget about understanding that, its no wonder so many people are turning to atheism with Christians like you, if your an example of how a christian acts then why would anyone want to label themselves as one?

melanie wrote:

outlaw wrote:

melanie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Melanie,

What I find odd is this, how a person would not deny someone accused of a crime the right to use his/her testimony and whatever evidence to prove their respective innocence. Yet, people like Outlaw demands that God is guilty of great crimes and yet deny him the right to use his own words (the bible) and evidence? Amazing, isn't it?

Instead, these folks are like the Pharisees who did this long ago to Jesus by taking selected words from the bible out of context to prove God guilty and do what they can to bring false witnesses against him while demanding he confess blasphemy against humanity so they can put God to death. They do this by denying God the right to speak and present evidence contrary to their charges. Then have the gall to say sin does not exist so they can get away with doing this! How is that just? Not at all - and proves that the sin of unjustness, deception, vindictive hate, is alive and well in such folks.

If a man was wrongly convicted of a crime and people went through the record of all his words spoken, and deeds, then misconstrued them to prove he is guilty of a crime he never committed and then not permitting him to use evidence and the context of his own words that will clear his name, that would be unjust would it not? Yet, folks still do so with God and the bible just as they did to Jesus long ago - nothing has changed.

Sin is real...

outlaw wrote:Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists.

-
-
-

Hey outlaw,
I did answer your first question and I didn't use scripture. You may not have agreed or liked my answer but you have to understand that if you are asking someone to prove something to you that you are refusing to give any validation to, then it's really just a big fat waste of time. If someone asks another to prove a scientific theory to them, they have to first believe that science exists in the first place otherwise it's kinda pointless. I and twenty others can respond, your step father can exhaust himself, you can email 50 pastors and priests, but you are asking them to reconcile something with you that you can't even reconcile within yourself.

People spend their entire lives either running towards God or running away from Him. Those that are running in the opposite direction, often claim to be atheist but it's interesting the energy they spend arguing against something that should really have zero impact on them, and little interest. But they are angry. Confused. They speak against God, whilst claiming He doesn't exist, it's quite the oxymoron. That is why I think for many people, I'm not sure if you are one of them, that when you scratch just below the surface there is a whole lot more going on. When you get passed the anger and resentment there is so often a reason. You are not going to all this trouble to prove to us that we are wrong, you want someone to prove to YOU maybe not that God exists because I think deep down you must already know this otherwise you wouldn't go to so much trouble, but what your really asking here, I think because of your experiences, is for someone to prove the fairness of God to you. Sometimes it comes down to this feeling of not liking someone telling you what to do, how to behave, you have to be just like 'this' to conform. You know you don't really have to, conform that is. I have always had issues with authority, I very much was along the lines of 'who are you to tell me how to think, behave, act' I have also in the past been really angry at God, questioning everything, pushing against Him, because deep down I knew He was real, but I felt really let down, ripped off and hurt and disappointed. So I directed my anger towards Him, how could you send all these people to Hell? How is it fair to expect so much from people? I worked through it all and found a Father who was none of things that I had accused Him of in my anger.

Edit: sorry father in law

Why are you assuming I'm angry at god I get the same comment from everyone I ask these questions to, I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation that's it everyone seems to be able to tell me how it doesn't work but no one seems to be able to explain it in a way that makes sense and I emphasize makes sense.

Interesting how everyone keeps telling you the same thing, perhaps your tone of language reflects it.
You are jumping all over the place.

I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation

His plan but I thought you said he didn't exist?

[You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. /quote]

I'm simply saying you firstly have to prove god is there

You want someone to prove to you what you are having problems reconciling with yourself

Prove sin!

prove it without using the bible to back up itself

prove that the God spoken about in the book is anything more than a chatracter in the book, without useing the bible to prove the bible

Outlaw nobody has to prove anything to you. You don't have to believe. If you don't think God exists go about your life. But it's not quite that cut and dry is it? Now your saying that your just trying to figure out His plan. The plan of someone that doesn't exist? Or He does exist, you just want someone to prove it to you. It doesn't work that way. That is why it is a belief outlaw based on faith. I could tell you many different ways God has 'proved' Himself to be real in my experience but we both know that's not what your looking for.
I will say it again, I think you do believe, you just don't know how to tie it all in together. Which isn't being helped by your frustration, resentment and defensiveness.

Gods plan BTW for salvation really is pretty simple. Love and trust Him, that builds over time and I will use scripture because it's salvation in a nutshell John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Even sinners, and ratbags, and outcasts, and outlaws

OK read the title of this thread and then my first comment about the salvation plan. I realise your belief is based on faith I'm just trying to figure out where you start, what I mean by where to start is, in what order does it flow are you first convinced your a sinner that needs saving then you hear gods plan and develop the belief of god and believe god can save you or does it workin a different order?
I just find it hard to put my faith in a plan that doesn't make sense.

Gods plan BTW for salvation really is pretty simple. Love and trust Him, that builds over time

Um you see this is the problem, you havent explained how the plan actually works, loving and trusting i would think would come after finding out how his Salvation plan works first. If anyone could explain how the salvation plan works then maybe i could begin to trust this plan, I need to know how the plan works before i put my faith in the person executing it. If you went around putting your trust in everybody without first sussing them out i dont think things would work out too well for you.

This is a story I recently read, I'm not sure of the original author but it really reasoned with me and I want to share it with you;
There once was a king who had a very strong reputation for enforcing the law in his kingdom. He never compromised for anyone. If someone broke the law a penalty was always required.

Then one day this king sat upon his throne hearing case after case, when suddenly a very shocking thing happened. A young man was brought in for judgment. He had been caught red-handed in theft. The whole kingdom stood in silence to hear the king's judgment. You see, this was no ordinary case: the young man was the king's son!

Being as broken hearted as he was, the king knew that he still must give judgment. Justice must be done. One hand would have to severed. Then suddenly the king surprised everyone by ordering HIS OWN HAND to be cut off. He chose to pay the penalty himself!

That is what God has done for us.

When you look at every country, culture, now or in the past, there was and is some type of enforceable law that the people abide under. Whether it's modern day or ancient tribal cultures. I live in Australia where the original people of this land are the Koories or also called the Aboriginals. They lived very tribally but had a very strict but fair 'law system'. I have done some study into this and I am yet to find any not even one culture that lived without any type law system. Some of them are very different to how we understand it to work for us, but they still had enforceable to some extent 'laws'. I think anyone when they look at it logically can see that laws or as God called them commandments are necessary. I'm not sure if you have kids but you don't have to to understand that within the household you have to rules. That for the most part are there for harmony. Ever seen those kids who are let run riot, with no rules, easy to see no good comes from it. It is the same with society or humanity. Even when lucifer rebelled against God he paid a price. So even out of this universe the inescapable principals of cause and effort still exist. You can't blame God for making some rules. If you were put in charge over a family, a city, a country you would do exactly the same. You just can't hold it against God for doing what logically makes perfect sense.
Which leads us to 'punishment' I know the word sucks! As a grown, capable, intelligent women I'm not jumping up and down over the notion of being punished, but I know I can't walk into a store and take what I like and walk away. Neither can I treat people like crap, be disrespectful, mean, unkind, falsely accuse a person to get myself ahead, trample on others feelings and be a bigoted, self-righteous twat.
So God made these 'rules' and what happens. We don't live by them. We cheat and steal and lie, to the extreme we kill and we decide that we can live without God, we make false Gods, we even tell ourselves we can be Gods. Where does that leave God? Annoyed, angry, frustrated but most importantly hurt. He could wipe us out, we see from sodom and Gomorrah and the flood that it is completely feasible for God to do this on an absolute basis, everyone and everything. But He doesn't want to do that, but He has to do something, not because He wants submission from us, but because it just really hurts Him so profoundly and deeply to see His children before Him guilty, like the king in the story, he's broken hearted because He knows He has to uphold the law, so He looks for another way out. He sacrifices Himself, through His son. So that none of us, ever have to stand before Him guilty, punishable under His law. That was His plan outlaw. He got around it for us. Jesus was beaten, and hung up on that cross and said Father forgive them. His plan for salvation was done on that cross.
Jesus' very last words before he died were "it is finished". His sacrifice for us was done. 3 days later He rose from the dead and later ascended to be with His Father in heaven, forever, being our counsel, saying eternally to our Father, forgive them.

So what do we have to do? Jesus has already done the hard work, we get the easy bit. Romans 10:9-10 sums it up perfectly; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Once we do that, we still sin, over time we get kinda better at not doing so, but still struggle with it. And it's okay. It doesn't matter, we are not bound by it anymore.
So you have to have that little leap of faith first, then I guarantee you, God will start revealing Himself to you. Which reaffirms your faith and that little piece of faith overtime turns into a real, tangible, meaningful, relationship with God. He's not this unknowable God ruling with an iron fist from heaven. He is kind, patient, understanding, merciful, and loving.
His nature is unchanging and holy. Not one single thing about Him ever changes. What does Holy mean? It means every bit of goodness you see in this world multiplied by a trillion.

The issue of sin is a theological one.
Sin is defined in many ways but it is hard to have sin without the notion of God.
Sin is doing what is wrong KNOWING it is wrong.
Typically.
I say typically because doing something wrong not knowing it is wrong is STILL doing something wrong.
But is it a sin?

Well, here is the thing, God decides what is sin and isn't and The Laws was created to POINT to what sin was ( various laws for various TYPES of sin of course).

Knowing what is right and still doing what is wrong is the very essence of sin and it doesn't just have to be a violation of divine law because the reality is that we ALL know that there IS a right and wrong, a good and evil.
Sure people can debate WHAT IS right and wrong or good and evil BUT no on TRULY and HONESTLY debates that there IS right and wrong, that there IS good and evil.

So there IS sin because we ALL know that there IS good and evil, right an wrong.

melanie wrote:This is a story I recently read, I'm not sure of the original author but it really reasoned with me and I want to share it with you;
There once was a king who had a very strong reputation for enforcing the law in his kingdom. He never compromised for anyone. If someone broke the law a penalty was always required.

Then one day this king sat upon his throne hearing case after case, when suddenly a very shocking thing happened. A young man was brought in for judgment. He had been caught red-handed in theft. The whole kingdom stood in silence to hear the king's judgment. You see, this was no ordinary case: the young man was the king's son!

Being as broken hearted as he was, the king knew that he still must give judgment. Justice must be done. One hand would have to severed. Then suddenly the king surprised everyone by ordering HIS OWN HAND to be cut off. He chose to pay the penalty himself!

That is what God has done for us.

When you look at every country, culture, now or in the past, there was and is some type of enforceable law that the people abide under. Whether it's modern day or ancient tribal cultures. I live in Australia where the original people of this land are the Koories or also called the Aboriginals. They lived very tribally but had a very strict but fair 'law system'. I have done some study into this and I am yet to find any not even one culture that lived without any type law system. Some of them are very different to how we understand it to work for us, but they still had enforceable to some extent 'laws'. I think anyone when they look at it logically can see that laws or as God called them commandments are necessary. I'm not sure if you have kids but you don't have to to understand that within the household you have to rules. That for the most part are there for harmony. Ever seen those kids who are let run riot, with no rules, easy to see no good comes from it. It is the same with society or humanity. Even when lucifer rebelled against God he paid a price. So even out of this universe the inescapable principals of cause and effort still exist. You can't blame God for making some rules. If you were put in charge over a family, a city, a country you would do exactly the same. You just can't hold it against God for doing what logically makes perfect sense.
Which leads us to 'punishment' I know the word sucks! As a grown, capable, intelligent women I'm not jumping up and down over the notion of being punished, but I know I can't walk into a store and take what I like and walk away. Neither can I treat people like crap, be disrespectful, mean, unkind, falsely accuse a person to get myself ahead, trample on others feelings and be a bigoted, self-righteous twat.
So God made these 'rules' and what happens. We don't live by them. We cheat and steal and lie, to the extreme we kill and we decide that we can live without God, we make false Gods, we even tell ourselves we can be Gods. Where does that leave God? Annoyed, angry, frustrated but most importantly hurt. He could wipe us out, we see from sodom and Gomorrah and the flood that it is completely feasible for God to do this on an absolute basis, everyone and everything. But He doesn't want to do that, but He has to do something, not because He wants submission from us, but because it just really hurts Him so profoundly and deeply to see His children before Him guilty, like the king in the story, he's broken hearted because He knows He has to uphold the law, so He looks for another way out. He sacrifices Himself, through His son. So that none of us, ever have to stand before Him guilty, punishable under His law. That was His plan outlaw. He got around it for us. Jesus was beaten, and hung up on that cross and said Father forgive them. His plan for salvation was done on that cross.
Jesus' very last words before he died were "it is finished". His sacrifice for us was done. 3 days later He rose from the dead and later ascended to be with His Father in heaven, forever, being our counsel, saying eternally to our Father, forgive them.

So what do we have to do? Jesus has already done the hard work, we get the easy bit. Romans 10:9-10 sums it up perfectly; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Once we do that, we still sin, over time we get kinda better at not doing so, but still struggle with it. And it's okay. It doesn't matter, we are not bound by it anymore.
So you have to have that little leap of faith first, then I guarantee you, God will start revealing Himself to you. Which reaffirms your faith and that little piece of faith overtime turns into a real, tangible, meaningful, relationship with God. He's not this unknowable God ruling with an iron fist from heaven. He is kind, patient, understanding, merciful, and loving.
His nature is unchanging and holy. Not one single thing about Him ever changes. What does Holy mean? It means every bit of goodness you see in this world multiplied by a trillion.

I'm Australian too I live on the sunshine coast, yes I also have children, 3 boys, my wife is a ministers daughter.
I have read that story before too and I'm assuming that's your analogy for gods salvation plan and I don't find it all that noble in fact I find it rather idiotic here's why.
If I made a rule that any of my kids caught taking a biscuit without asking the penalty would be death, then one of my kids takes a biscuit the next day so the family gather around wondering what's going to happen, then I tell them because I love my son and even though he broke my rule I've decided to kill myself instead, then all of my children can go on taking biscuits but will escape punishment because my death paid it.
Later on one of my kids would say wow dad is such a hero for not killing Coby and instead killing himself, but then my older more logical thinking son would say, hang on wasn't it DAD who made the rule in the first place? Dads an idiot he killed himself for nothing all he had to do was make the punishment for taking biscuits something else to begin with and he'd still be here to teach us why taking biscuits without asking is wrong, the way he left us now we can still go on taking biscuits (even though we know its wrong) and never be punished for it because dad paid our punishment. Do you see how stupid it is?

Are you telling me the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe couldn't come up with another way to forgive without killing himself to save us from him having to carry out the punishment on us in which HE decided in the first place?

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue of sin is a theological one.
Sin is defined in many ways but it is hard to have sin without the notion of God.
Sin is doing what is wrong KNOWING it is wrong.
Typically.
I say typically because doing something wrong not knowing it is wrong is STILL doing something wrong.
But is it a sin?

Well, here is the thing, God decides what is sin and isn't and The Laws was created to POINT to what sin was ( various laws for various TYPES of sin of course).

Knowing what is right and still doing what is wrong is the very essence of sin and it doesn't just have to be a violation of divine law because the reality is that we ALL know that there IS a right and wrong, a good and evil.
Sure people can debate WHAT IS right and wrong or good and evil BUT no on TRULY and HONESTLY debates that there IS right and wrong, that there IS good and evil.

So there IS sin because we ALL know that there IS good and evil, right an wrong.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but if the definition of sin is breaking gods laws then you first have to believe god exists before you care about breaking its laws.
Which comes first belief in god or believing your a sinner that needs saving?
Because why would you believe in god if you didn't first believe you were a sinner in need of saving?
But how can you believe your a sinner, without already believing in the thing who's laws your breaking?

I feel like I'm repeating myself but if the definition of sin is breaking gods laws then you first have to believe god exists before you care about breaking its laws.

The Theological definition of sin may be described as such but only on a superficial level. Theology exposes sin and gives its definition, you can see it throughout all reality in play. Just as you need Mathematics to expose and define formulas, so too you need Theology. But we live in a world of union and order where everything interacts and effects each other in its own playing fields. So you can see sin exists without Theology defining it, which I lightly touch on below.

Which comes first belief in god or believing your a sinner that needs saving?
Because why would you believe in god if you didn't first believe you were a sinner in need of saving?

..What? I believe in God because I want to know truth and to understand the reality we live in. That is where my search for truth led me, to God. And I searched and keep searching all facets of revealed reality (metaphysics, philosophy, theology, sciences) to attempt to find the purpose/function behind everything. Gods fingerprint is everywhere and everything connects with each other as it should.

But how can you believe your a sinner, without already believing in the thing who's laws your breaking?

It sucks having a sinful nature: drawn to deviate from natural law, perverting our own essence and communities. You don't need theology to see sin exists. Sin is just the theological term. Sin is deviating from who and what you are and/or imposing these differences in your existence. Order does exist and is necessary. You see it in human history and most obviously, nature. Deviating from that order, is sinful. (the 'you' being used here is directed towards everyone): You don't get to change others and the world around you how you desire. It's not your world, and the people are not yours. You get to be here and play in this existence created for you. Order is a necessity to a community. We live in the natural and human community and have a responsibility to respect all of it for what it is. Sin is saying 'forget you all, I think X is how things should be and that's how I'm going to live'. That produces the world we live in today, drowning in self inflicting and environmentally imposing perversion of reality.

outlaw wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue of sin is a theological one.
Sin is defined in many ways but it is hard to have sin without the notion of God.
Sin is doing what is wrong KNOWING it is wrong.
Typically.
I say typically because doing something wrong not knowing it is wrong is STILL doing something wrong.
But is it a sin?

Well, here is the thing, God decides what is sin and isn't and The Laws was created to POINT to what sin was ( various laws for various TYPES of sin of course).

Knowing what is right and still doing what is wrong is the very essence of sin and it doesn't just have to be a violation of divine law because the reality is that we ALL know that there IS a right and wrong, a good and evil.
Sure people can debate WHAT IS right and wrong or good and evil BUT no on TRULY and HONESTLY debates that there IS right and wrong, that there IS good and evil.

So there IS sin because we ALL know that there IS good and evil, right an wrong.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but if the definition of sin is breaking gods laws then you first have to believe god exists before you care about breaking its laws.
Which comes first belief in god or believing your a sinner that needs saving?
Because why would you believe in god if you didn't first believe you were a sinner in need of saving?
But how can you believe your a sinner, without already believing in the thing who's laws your breaking?

Why would someone believe in God if he did not first believe he was a sinner in need of saving?
Well, because God showed himself to him.