Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:Lonewolf,

Nobody said anything dismissive towards oncesaved. Did you misread something?

If you're talking about my back and forth with Byblos, it goes back to the many conversations we've had about osas. I believe in absolute assurance, Byblos doesn't. Byblos was actually joking with me.

Speak for yourself buddy. I am absolutely assured OSAS is wrong.

Wow, and you all call yourselves Christians? Sorry I asked anything.

OnceSaved wrote:Wow, and you all call yourselves Christians? Sorry I asked anything.

Why are you sorry you were asked? You were linked to a very helpful discussion on the question. If you read it, you should be able to get an answer to the question, and if you have anything further to ask or add, you can do so there. In short, whatever joking was done back and forth between Rick and Byblos, you were given a helpful answer. It's up to you to what you'll do with it, of course . . .

OnceSaved wrote:Wow, and you all call yourselves Christians? Sorry I asked anything.

OnceSaved,

Hana(1over137) posted a link for you to look at. If after you read it over, you have any questions or comments, please post there.

OnceSaved wrote:Once Saved, Always Saved

True or False?

What does the New Testament say?

2 Pet. 2:20-21, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 6:4-6, Rev. 2:10, Rom. 8:12-13, Heb. 3:14, 1 Tim. 1:19, Rev. 3:5, Luke 3:9, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 10:26-27, 1 John 3:6

I personally do not believe that you're saved if you don't persevere till the end.

To put in simple terms.

I'd agree with you. Because I don't feel God would "force" Himself on anyone.

However, then I'm not sure "persevere" is the true word. That a person MUST perservere suggests that Christians are saved on account of themselves, and that is not the Christian message at all. As you probably know considering yourself once a Christian (if I read your "oncesaved" alias correctly).

There is much I think involved in who we are. What is "you"? Seems like such a simple question, but it's rather complex.
For example, I do not consider who I am the same as who I was say 20 years ago.
Had an entertaining discussion about this with Jac several years ago.

Anyway, haven't see you post recently. So don't even know if you'll get this.

All the best!

1 Timothy 4:1 says:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

You can't depart from something you were never a part of, so yes you can lose salvation.

Stu wrote:1 Timothy 4:1 says:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

You can't depart from something you were never a part of, so yes you can lose salvation.

Tell me Stu,

John 3:16 says:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.



If I believe in Christ, and have eternal life, as the verse says, and then I become "unsaved" at some point, would that mean my eternal life was really only "temporary" eternal life?

I hope you can see the problem with what you're saying.

I'd like to jump in on this. I can only quickly post now so I'll give it more attention later...

John 3:16 says:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Demons and satan believe in Jesus, but do not have eternal life.
What does it mean to believe in Jesus? <-- real question
I think it is more than to choose to believe Jesus is God incarnate, died to save and reconcile humanity to God, and was raised from the dead.
I think it's to take seriously all we know of Him and what He said/revealed to us and live it.

And what happens when one stops believing? It seems rational that John 3:16 in contrast should read ...That whoever [does not believe] in Him shall [perish], but [not] have eternal life.

It's about active belief. I don't see OSAS being scriptural at all.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What does it mean to 'believeth on him'?

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Sounds like it takes work to follow Christ. Work called personal responsibility and integrity. It is an action to believe something. Yes, faith is by grace alone, and our acceptance of it, our belief of it, and yes, being right about our beliefs. Those are all actions taken by someone to come into belief and affirm belief.

How about people who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Surely satan and his demons do such. I've see it always argued that only those who know/believe Jesus is who and what He claims to be can potentially sin the unforgivable sin. How does that follow into OSAS?

Gotta go, that's all I have for now and hopefully isn't too messily thrown together.

Kurieuo wrote:

OnceSaved wrote:Once Saved, Always Saved

True or False?

What does the New Testament say?

2 Pet. 2:20-21, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 6:4-6, Rev. 2:10, Rom. 8:12-13, Heb. 3:14, 1 Tim. 1:19, Rev. 3:5, Luke 3:9, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 10:26-27, 1 John 3:6

I personally do not believe that you're saved if you don't persevere till the end.

To put in simple terms.

I'd agree with you. Because I don't feel God would "force" Himself on anyone.

However, then I'm not sure "persevere" is the true word. That a person MUST perservere suggests that Christians are saved on account of themselves, and that is not the Christian message at all. As you probably know considering yourself once a Christian (if I read your "oncesaved" alias correctly).

There is much I think involved in who we are. What is "you"? Seems like such a simple question, but it's rather complex.
For example, I do not consider who I am the same as who I was say 20 years ago.
Had an entertaining discussion about this with Jac several years ago.

Anyway, haven't see you post recently. So don't even know if you'll get this.

All the best!

Just found that "entertaining discussion" I had with Jac, actually 7 years ago: Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Will have to re-read that again when I have time. I remember there being some interesting thoughts coming out.

RickD wrote:

Stu wrote:1 Timothy 4:1 says:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

You can't depart from something you were never a part of, so yes you can lose salvation.

Tell me Stu,

John 3:16 says:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.



If I believe in Christ, and have eternal life, as the verse says, and then I become "unsaved" at some point, would that mean my eternal life was really only "temporary" eternal life?

I hope you can see the problem with what you're saying.

Yes if we keep the faith you will have eternal life.
But isn't that verse talking about eternal life in heaven?

But what's your take on the verse that I quoted if it's not what I said -- how would people "depart from the faith" then?

Stu wrote:
Yes if we keep the faith you will have eternal life.
But isn't that verse talking about eternal life in heaven?

Not according to John 5:24
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

When we believe in Christ, we have passed over from death unto life. At that moment, we have eternal life.

But what's your take on the verse that I quoted if it's not what I said -- how would people "depart from the faith" then?

Stu,

Let's take a look at 1 Timothy 4:1-5
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

I think in context, verse 1 is saying "falling away from the faith" is referring to following false teachings. It certainly doesn't say anything about believers losing salvation.

Mallz wrote:
Demons and satan believe in Jesus, but do not have eternal life.
What does it mean to believe in Jesus? <-- real question
I think it is more than to choose to believe Jesus is God incarnate, died to save and reconcile humanity to God, and was raised from the dead.
I think it's to take seriously all we know of Him and what He said/revealed to us and live it.

First, satan and demons weren't offered the gift of salvation. Second, they don't "believe" in Christ. Believe in John 3:16, means to trust. As in trusting who Christ is, and what he has done, is sufficient for salvation.

And what happens when one stops believing? It seems rational that John 3:16 in contrast should read ...That whoever [does not believe] in Him shall [perish], but [not] have eternal life.

But it doesn't say that. It says when we believe/trust Christ, we have eternal life. Read what the verse says. Don't read anything more into it. It's the simple gospel. Don't make it unnecessarily difficult.

It's about active belief. I don't see OSAS being scriptural at all.

Discipleship is about active trust. Not salvation. Don't conflate the two.

Malz,

...if one stopped believing then they never believed to begin with...

Think about it for a bit.
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RickD wrote:...Let's take a look at 1 Timothy 4:1-5

4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

I think in context, verse 1 is saying "falling away from the faith" is referring to following false teachings. It certainly doesn't say anything about believers losing salvation.

That is correct - false teachings and for example - we have many seen on Christian TV and modern church moments such as Chrislam, shepherding/discipleship movement renaissance, cultic beliefs passed off as christian, blab it and grab it, etc and etc...

Jesus mentions the false messiahs and leader movements of the last days as defining that it is such that make folks fall away and if it were possible deceive the elect. Sounds grim but the good news, God shortens those days for the sake of his own people. Must be pretty bad times when faith is mocked and reduced to the vain glory of men. I think we are getting a taste of this now worldwide. Come Lord Jesus!
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RickD wrote:

Stu wrote:
Yes if we keep the faith you will have eternal life.
But isn't that verse talking about eternal life in heaven?

Not according to John 5:24
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

When we believe in Christ, we have passed over from death unto life. At that moment, we have eternal life.

Ah ok.

But what's your take on the verse that I quoted if it's not what I said -- how would people "depart from the faith" then?

Stu,

Let's take a look at 1 Timothy 4:1-5
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

I think in context, verse 1 is saying "falling away from the faith" is referring to following false teachings. It certainly doesn't say anything about believers losing salvation.

Well now it depends on which version of the Bible you use, as the King James Version says "depart". But even "falling away" from the faith means parting from the faith. Surely you can't "pay attention" to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, and still worship God as He intended.