Evidence for God from Science

PaganC wrote:...Sounds to me as if you're limiting God's power and what He can do through His atonement in Christ Jesus. In fact, it sounds to me as if you're leaning unto your own understanding -as if, the atonement failed and salvation relies on works of man being tested -as if your loyalty should account as worthy. Indeed, God does uncover the true nature of what lies inside a man's heart. Have you not read that it is not by you -but by His will that you are redeemed?

Why then do you limit God?

It is written:

Proverbs 17:15, "He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD." NIV

Universalism seeks to justify whom? But what does YHWH say?

Next, the Lord does what?

Proverbs 17:3, "The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart." NIV

Jer 17:10, "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings." NKJV

Isa 3:10,11 "Say to the righteous that it shall be well with them, For they shall eat the fruit of their doings. 11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, For the reward of his hands shall be given him." NKJV

Woe to the wicked, it will be ill with him...

Eccl 3:15, 16, 17,18, "....also said to myself, "As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals" NIV

Mat 25:41, 46, "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

No matter how hard Universalist try to change the meaning of Luke 16:19-31 they cannot erase this truth for to do so erases the truth Jesus spoke...

Luke 16:26, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."

Sorry, the bible does not support the doctrine of Universalism at all. Nether did Jesus

Why do you demand God to conform to a view he opposes?
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theophilus wrote:

PaganC wrote:Sounds to me as if you're limiting God's power and what He can do through His atonement in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 2:14-16 says that Christ's atonement doesn't include angels but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that God has provided some way their sins could be atoned for.

In fact, it sounds to me as if you're leaning unto your own understanding -as if, the atonement failed and salvation relies on works of man being tested -as if your loyalty should account as worthy. Indeed, God does uncover the true nature of what lies inside a man's heart. Have you not read that it is not by you -but by His will that you are redeemed?

Why then do you limit God?

In your profile you say that you aren't a Christian but you seem to understand this subject better than some Christians do. Just what is your religion?

I have no religion, Theophilus, at least not the religion that most everybody makes out Christianity to be. I've yet to come across a group of Christians who have a monopoly on Biblical truth.

Surely, most studied Christians all present their educated understanding of what scripture says, but all still come out short in some aspect or another in terms of scriptural interpretation.

You quoted Heb. 2:14-16, but I dare ask, if Christ's atonement is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world, and if through His resurrection, death has been defeated, and if He will one day reconcile all things to Himself, and if there will be new heavens and a new earth, and if all is possible to God, and being that God is just and merciful, and Love is of His nature and His commandment, and we sinners where given grace -another chance, per say- surely one can get a glimpse of a cosmic redemption process taking place much higher that what we sometimes limit His works.

There's a saying that goes like this ~> Raise no more devils than you can lay down.

Sometimes I think that there is no more a devil that the one, one makes it ought to be. By this I don't mean to say that there is no devil, because surely he exists, but I take notice of when Peter was rebuked by the Lord ~> get behind me satan. Peter was not a literal satan, but his human lack of understanding placed him in opposition to Jesus plan of redemption on the Cross. So when we limit God to how we interpret or understand scripture, we just may in a sense be satan's like Peter was in that particular moment, no?

The Lord is wise and merciful, to test us is not that He needs us to pass the test in order to redeem all things to Himself, no, to test us serves for us to work towards our edification. Religion to a large extent creates rules, doctrines, dogmas, etc, etc, that we are to follow in our journey in the faith, however, how simple things can be when we leave it to the Lord who does know our all, and it can be as simple as when He told the woman ~> Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you? And she replied, No one, Lord. And Jesus said, I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.

The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man indeed conveys a message, but is it really one of eternal hell fire, or was it an allegorical story designed to convey a truth and moral lesson aimed at those Pharisees present?

Lonewolf wrote:The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man indeed conveys a message, but is it really one of eternal hell fire, or was it an allegorical story designed to convey a truth and moral lesson aimed at those Pharisees present?

Why do you think this is a parable?

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/1 ... ual-event/

PaganC wrote:I have read that Lucifer was an angel in heaven, and when he rebelled against God, he was cast down to earth which is where the Garden of Eden was, and Adam and Eve where in that garden as well, naked and innocent. Why would God cast down to earth this sinful angel and allow him to tempt these first "green" and naive humans?

Because there was a war in heaven in which Lucifer and a third of the angels went to war and tried to overtake God's throne Rev 12:7-9 but they were defeated and kicked out,thus Jesus saw Satan fall as lightning fall from heaven Luke 10:18.Also the bible tells us that fallen angels cannot and will not be saved they are against God.

I know atheists,etc don't understand it but God wants us to choose to love him from the heart and God gave us free will because of this and you probably are the same way you want people to love you because they choose to and God will never allow us to be tempted above what we are able to stand and he has equipped us with spiritual weapons to use to over come anything Satan's kingdom can throw at us.I choose to love and serve God out of my free will to do so as I am not a robot programmed to do it as it would not be true love if I was,even angels choose to love God or not.

theophilus wrote:

Lonewolf wrote:The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man indeed conveys a message, but is it really one of eternal hell fire, or was it an allegorical story designed to convey a truth and moral lesson aimed at those Pharisees present?

Why do you think this is a parable?

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/1 ... ual-event/

Naturally, Theophilus, if one is predisposed to read the parable already with the belief of hell at the core of the message, then that is exactly what one would read, but that is not to say that it is the sole or only understanding that all Christians have from that reading, especially if one is against the doctrine of eternal torment.