Evidence for God from Science

Hey Bibby
I have been researching NDE's for the past year, everything I can get my hands on and it's been fascinating.
The most overwhelming response that I have encountered is this feeling of being in Gods presence as the most profound, life changing experience. Absolute love and peace.
Most have been dissapointted on returning 'back' and some experienced a sense of loss from being seperated from God's love.
I find it interesting the similarities between experiences but no two exactly alike. The vast majority have encountered a life review of some sort. What I found especially interesting is that nearly every account I have read said that when they experienced the life review not only were they looking at it from their perspective but from the other persons. They felt the joy or love they brought the person, or they felt the anguish, sadness ect. Most have come away with the most profound understanding that it is indeed 'how we treat others' that we will be accountable for. I read one story where this bloke was saying that he had achieved quite highly in life, starting from a young boy, athletic and sporting achievements, academic achievements, highly significant career achievements but in the life review those things just skimmed on by, without significance. It was his interactions with others that the life review focused on. The love or lack thereof.
Another factor that has been universal in people who have experienced NDE's is the communication aspect. Non verbal and as soon as a question is posed in their mind it is answered. Those that have experienced 'travelling' in the spirit realm, most have said it happened instantaneously. Mind boggling.

I have also read accounts of not so pleasant experiences. Some people experienced hell, and it sounds down right frightening but there are others who just experienced a void. A Complete nothingness. A consciousness but without a reality attached to outside the 'void'. Interestingly some described it as a seperation from God. Not sure why some experience hell and others the void?

It is amazing how people from all backgrounds, religions have experienced such similar things. Many athiests and people from differing religions have encountered Jesus and upon returning have turned to Christ. Some JW who didn't expect to experience anything immediately after death have understood their error since their NDE.

One thing is certain it has transformed the lives of many people. There are countless people coming forward who have NDE who have previously felt not spoken about it. I love it when I read how many of them say just how much they are looking forward to returning home.

Ohh and another thing that has really intrigued me is how many of them has said that this existence, no matter how 'real' it seems pales in significance to what awaits us. Every sense is heightened, they experience colours never seen before, they explain nature, like flowers and trees being 'alive' in a different sense to how we understand it. They say that we think that this is 'reality' but once you have experienced the spiritual realm you understand how much 'realer' that existence is. A perfect harmony, a perfect understanding all wrapped up in perfect peace and love.

They are left pretty much speechless to describe God and His love. Some experience Jesus, others the 'light'. A common term is 'no words to describe', that there is nothing existing in our language that comes close to explaining the beauty and love of God. I have read a few accounts of people trying to describe how it permeates and emulates your entire being, they felt saturated by love in God's light. Ohhh gives my goosebumps!

One thing that bothers me though is that there are quite a number of cases where although they experience God and the light, they speak about their experience in a very universal way. They confess God is love and that all we are called upon to do is 'love' one another but without the message that Jesus is the key.
Whilst many confess that they saw Jesus, spoke to Him, felt His presence, some of them from the void or hell called out to Jesus and were removed from thier agony into His light and love.
There are also accounts where they claim they experienced God, but not necessarily the Christian God. A more universal God.

It worries me that even if NDE's are proven true, which I believe most are, that won't lead people to embrace Jesus, just a universal deity.

I have pondered as to why some have come away with a clear message of God but not of Jesus and I'm not entirely sure. Maybe some are false accounts, maybe God is still leading them to that truth and for them on a personal note, God gave them experience, gave them the opportunity to believe in Him through their experience but they still need to take that final step completely on their own and accept Christ. Maybe it is like in BW's account where they are given false delusions. I don't know but majority have a heaven or hell experience completely in line with the Bible's account. So many are experiencing God and Jesus. Not Muhammad, even if they are Muslim, not Buddha, even though Buddha never claimed to be a God, but no account I have read saw him in chillin in nirvana nor have I read any accounts of people experiencing pagan Gods.
Just God The Father and The Son.
Amen to that!

Melanie yes , many of the Nde's I have also read about have shown a a life review and everyone one if them seem to fosus on the love and care that one person shows to another.

One doctor I saw on this show on A&E showed him dying and having a near death experience and saw Jesus. Instead of his life review focusing on all his medical accomplishments and monetary gains , instead the life review focused on the time when he was a kid and was a crossing guard helping other children cross the street after school.

These are tiny acts of kindness but they mean the world to heaven. The man wanted to stay in heaven but was told that he had to go back as he had more work to do.

The smallest acts within this material world seem to be the immaterial act of agape love and it is that love that carries huge significance to heaven.

I'll try to find the show.

Bmw's ,mansions , billions of dollars , living the leisurely life , caring only for oneself mean absolutely nothing in heavens eyes.

I still remember the time when I was sick with a deadly bacteria that almost killed me and kept me bedridden for 2 years and even though i couldn't hold down my food , my dad used to come into my bedroom after 12 hours of work to make me a heavy calorie shake and stuff it down my throat and then he would try to take my mind off my illness by watching some good ole three stooges with me.

Everything about him was simple and it might not seem important to this world but it's very important to me and I bet it means everything to heaven.
I bet he is being exalted in heaven right now

I found it. You guys are gonna love this

http://youtu.be/iSQ1XUWVLRc

This man died twice on the operating table and both times wound up,in the same place .
He met a Syrian mountain man on of the mountain who he recognizes to be Jesus .

bippy123 wrote: How can anyone compare anything else to Christ loving us enough to die on the cross for our sins .
This is perfect agape love

I always wonder if Christ dying for our sins part was simply not translated correctly from ancient coptic. I always wondered if the word for God which also means father was not translated correctly. I always wonder if the idea was Christ, the father, so loved his children that rather have them subject to the tyranny and slavery of Roman rule choose not to have his son in the first place. I always wonder if Jesus was trying to get all the Jews to be abstinent from having children so the Romans would not have any subjects to rule after one generation.

dfnj wrote:

bippy123 wrote: How can anyone compare anything else to Christ loving us enough to die on the cross for our sins .
This is perfect agape love

I always wonder if Christ dying for our sins part was simply not translated correctly from ancient coptic. I always wondered if the word for God which also means father was not translated correctly. I always wonder if the idea was Christ, the father, so loved his children that rather have them subject to the tyranny and slavery of Roman rule choose not to have his son in the first place. I always wonder if Jesus was trying to get all the Jews to be abstinent from having children so the Romans would not have any subjects to rule after one generation.

Correct me if I'm wrong , but aren't coptics orthodox? If so I have nevr seen one orthodox that believes that believe that the father chose not to have his son ? I mean is this even a Christian belief ?

melanie wrote:...I have pondered as to why some have come away with a clear message of God but not of Jesus and I'm not entirely sure. Maybe some are false accounts, maybe God is still leading them to that truth and for them on a personal note, God gave them experience, gave them the opportunity to believe in Him through their experience but they still need to take that final step completely on their own and accept Christ. Maybe it is like in BW's account where they are given false delusions. I don't know but majority have a heaven or hell experience completely in line with the Bible's account. So many are experiencing God and Jesus. Not Muhammad, even if they are Muslim, not Buddha, even though Buddha never claimed to be a God, but no account I have read saw him in chillin in nirvana nor have I read any accounts of people experiencing pagan Gods.
Just God The Father and The Son.
Amen to that!

The experience is profound and many simply are resuscitated too soon to fully comprehend what is going on. So they return telling all is well and no need to worry - everyone makes it to heaven all because all is love, love, love.

Have you ever heard of te old adage, "If it sounds too good to be true, then it is."

Take that as a bit of advice on folks glowing NDE's of all is well.

When I read or hear these accounts, I look for certain things missed by most which are as follows: the first is the duration and the next, the scenes. Third their age and forth, sweat as pie pride. These reveal to me a lot and is why I say, they were resuscitated too soon. In fact, if I was brought back either during the dark void period going toward a light while feeling great love, or being greeted by what appeared as people I once knew, I would not be here on a Christian Forum. I would be on Oprah Winfrey show instead.

Yes, you do feel great love during the initial entrance, unless one is pure evil, then it is a different story. Those that experience a great love most likely are experiencing an avenue of God's love; however, they haven't realized that God's love is judging them concerning how a person has taken advantage of that love, scamming it if you permit a more rougher analogy. My opinion is that is one reason the majority see in his/her life reviews things concerning love and how they love. Then they return a little bit too soon to realize how much they fall short of the glory of God's love and the true nature of the devil's deception. Something to have experienced to to understand what I am trying to convey.

How diabolical evil is and how it games God's word and God's nature/character is beyond extraordinary. You see, in the bible it does mention that in the last days there will be permitted an unleashing of lying signs, wonders, and doctrines of demons etc and etc. With that, they do game the God's word and exploit to the full to deceive as many as they can by promoting a message that declares, "All is well after you die - no worries on how you live - just love, feel good about loving and by your loving others - you'll feel great about how sweet you are - you wonderfully nice proud thing..."

Please note this: God's love is relational - relationship oriented. Many NDE reports from non-Christians fail to note this at all. Instead it is loving to feel good and right. In essence, the love they encounter skips the relationship and focus' on the feel good effects such as how it benefits the the person. Keep that in mind. If they do mention any sort of relationship with God, notice if it is described in a sort of self absorbed manner that makes it all about the person describing it and not about God at all. Just look for details like that. They reveal a lot.

Next, what I am about the write will be controversial so hold on. God's love is extremely offensive to human pride and God's love indeed offends people because God's love is based on truth. That may sound rather odd as people say, God's love cannot offend but go witness to a person and read John 3:16-21 to them and then tell them that Jesus is the only way to heaven for an objective lesson on how offensive God's love is to sweetness of human pride. Some of the NDE survivors I have encountered, who say all is well and all that, tell them about Jesus being the only way and boom that pride appears. Best I can be is polite and point out a few things to them and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

I heard one recent heaven experience by a non Christian who stated how wonderful and beautiful and loving heaven was but felt like she was in some sort of cell. That was a red lag for me, but the new age, hindu types, miss that important point completely. One thing that I find difficult to do is to convey how deceptive the adversary really is coming as a messenger of light in these kind of mattes. I also find it hard to explain that God's love tells the truth and reveals truth in a person and judges a person and that, love, does not mean blind tolerance. All I can say is that to be judged by God's love and having that truth expose what you are truly like without excuses, without anything to hide behind, is more frightening than hell itself - to see yourself as you really are, in total truth, you know why hell is just.

I call that stuff inside human nature, darkness, no matter how nice they are, good they do, and appear. Experiencing how dark humanity really is, well, affects you. That is the one area, after all these years after surviving my after death venture, that affects me the most. However, by God's total grace, undeserved, he permitted me to return and become born again by His Holy Spirit in this life as that is the only time this can be done. I do know now, after I die, I will not face that judgment but instead will awake in the land of liquid love called God's heavenly land. My prayer is, with help from the Lord, drag as many folks there as I can as I like to have some good neighbors to visit there and play in the river of life with. Maybe meet FL and RickD, bippy, and yes, ol'Jac too and belly up to the heavenly soda pop bar for a root beer cloud float... all free too and a tin roof (on the house).

Blessings you all!
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BW , hope I are doing well my friend
Actually there are hellish nde accounts but the new age media tends to not publicize them.
Here is one that is extremely frightening .
This is the account if atheist professor Howard storm who had an nde experience that he would t wish in his worst enemy.

He ended up leaving his teaching post at a university and became a pastor . His transformation was nothing short of amazing .
http://youtu.be/9ySuJZ5DEuo

A great podcast I listen to has a NDE episode:

http://www.canarycryradio.com/2014/07/1 ... periences/

This episode has two accounts. One hellish, one heavenly.

I have seen Howard Storm's account.
One of the most frightening NDE's I have heard about!

I have heard of NED experiences where the person claimed to have gone to Heaven, or was on their way to heaven, when they were brought back. Does this contradict Christian doctrine? I was under the impression that the dead will not go to heaven or hell until the day of Judgment, but they simply sleep until then. Am I missing something here?

Ken

Kenny wrote:I have heard of NED experiences where the person claimed to have gone to Heaven, or was on their way to heaven, when they were brought back. Does this contradict Christian doctrine? I was under the impression that the dead will not go to heaven or hell until the day of Judgment, but they simply sleep until then. Am I missing something here?

Ken

That's a good question Kenny.

I think you are referring to soul sleep. It's an unbiblical doctrine.

Here's a couple of links that explain it a little.
https://carm.org/soul-sleep

http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

In short, there's nothing about NDE's in principle, that contradict scripture.

My head is still spinning lololo
I just got done debating the sam parnia Veridcal nde example from the aware study where parnia confirmed that the patient said he heard 2 bleeps from a device that verified that his nde happened during a non functional brain state.

His response to the 2 bleeps that the patient said he heard while in the non brain functioning state

""I don't believe him ""

B. W. wrote:

melanie wrote:...I have pondered as to why some have come away with a clear message of God but not of Jesus and I'm not entirely sure. Maybe some are false accounts, maybe God is still leading them to that truth and for them on a personal note, God gave them experience, gave them the opportunity to believe in Him through their experience but they still need to take that final step completely on their own and accept Christ. Maybe it is like in BW's account where they are given false delusions. I don't know but majority have a heaven or hell experience completely in line with the Bible's account. So many are experiencing God and Jesus. Not Muhammad, even if they are Muslim, not Buddha, even though Buddha never claimed to be a God, but no account I have read saw him in chillin in nirvana nor have I read any accounts of people experiencing pagan Gods.
Just God The Father and The Son.
Amen to that!

The experience is profound and many simply are resuscitated too soon to fully comprehend what is going on. So they return telling all is well and no need to worry - everyone makes it to heaven all because all is love, love, love.

Have you ever heard of te old adage, "If it sounds too good to be true, then it is."

Take that as a bit of advice on folks glowing NDE's of all is well.

When I read or hear these accounts, I look for certain things missed by most which are as follows: the first is the duration and the next, the scenes. Third their age and forth, sweat as pie pride. These reveal to me a lot and is why I say, they were resuscitated too soon. In fact, if I was brought back either during the dark void period going toward a light while feeling great love, or being greeted by what appeared as people I once knew, I would not be here on a Christian Forum. I would be on Oprah Winfrey show instead.

Yes, you do feel great love during the initial entrance, unless one is pure evil, then it is a different story. Those that experience a great love most likely are experiencing an avenue of God's love; however, they haven't realized that God's love is judging them concerning how a person has taken advantage of that love, scamming it if you permit a more rougher analogy. My opinion is that is one reason the majority see in his/her life reviews things concerning love and how they love. Then they return a little bit too soon to realize how much they fall short of the glory of God's love and the true nature of the devil's deception. Something to have experienced to to understand what I am trying to convey.

How diabolical evil is and how it games God's word and God's nature/character is beyond extraordinary. You see, in the bible it does mention that in the last days there will be permitted an unleashing of lying signs, wonders, and doctrines of demons etc and etc. With that, they do game the God's word and exploit to the full to deceive as many as they can by promoting a message that declares, "All is well after you die - no worries on how you live - just love, feel good about loving and by your loving others - you'll feel great about how sweet you are - you wonderfully nice proud thing..."

Please note this: God's love is relational - relationship oriented. Many NDE reports from non-Christians fail to note this at all. Instead it is loving to feel good and right. In essence, the love they encounter skips the relationship and focus' on the feel good effects such as how it benefits the the person. Keep that in mind. If they do mention any sort of relationship with God, notice if it is described in a sort of self absorbed manner that makes it all about the person describing it and not about God at all. Just look for details like that. They reveal a lot.

Next, what I am about the write will be controversial so hold on. God's love is extremely offensive to human pride and God's love indeed offends people because God's love is based on truth. That may sound rather odd as people say, God's love cannot offend but go witness to a person and read John 3:16-21 to them and then tell them that Jesus is the only way to heaven for an objective lesson on how offensive God's love is to sweetness of human pride. Some of the NDE survivors I have encountered, who say all is well and all that, tell them about Jesus being the only way and boom that pride appears. Best I can be is polite and point out a few things to them and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

I heard one recent heaven experience by a non Christian who stated how wonderful and beautiful and loving heaven was but felt like she was in some sort of cell. That was a red lag for me, but the new age, hindu types, miss that important point completely. One thing that I find difficult to do is to convey how deceptive the adversary really is coming as a messenger of light in these kind of mattes. I also find it hard to explain that God's love tells the truth and reveals truth in a person and judges a person and that, love, does not mean blind tolerance. All I can say is that to be judged by God's love and having that truth expose what you are truly like without excuses, without anything to hide behind, is more frightening than hell itself - to see yourself as you really are, in total truth, you know why hell is just.

I call that stuff inside human nature, darkness, no matter how nice they are, good they do, and appear. Experiencing how dark humanity really is, well, affects you. That is the one area, after all these years after surviving my after death venture, that affects me the most. However, by God's total grace, undeserved, he permitted me to return and become born again by His Holy Spirit in this life as that is the only time this can be done. I do know now, after I die, I will not face that judgment but instead will awake in the land of liquid love called God's heavenly land. My prayer is, with help from the Lord, drag as many folks there as I can as I like to have some good neighbors to visit there and play in the river of life with. Maybe meet FL and RickD, bippy, and yes, ol'Jac too and belly up to the heavenly soda pop bar for a root beer cloud float... all free too and a tin roof (on the house).

Blessings you all!
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Thanks BW
The fact you have experienced this personally, offers great insight!

So is there any evidence that Christians experience NDEs different from non-believers? Has anyone really gotten into the nuts-and-bolts of the afterlife in regards to NDEs?

I do think that people who have NDEs see what they need to see, and it's not necessarily a complete indication of what awaits on the other side.

Also, since God is timeless it begs the question, does Christ's sacrifice apply to all human beings regardless of when they lived? I think it might. It's a nice thought at least.

SoCalExile wrote:So is there any evidence that Christians experience NDEs different from non-believers? Has anyone really gotten into the nuts-and-bolts of the afterlife in regards to NDEs?

I do think that people who have NDEs see what they need to see, and it's not necessarily a complete indication of what awaits on the other side.

Also, since God is timeless it begs the question, does Christ's sacrifice apply to all human beings regardless of when they lived? I think it might. It's a nice thought at least.

We'll SoCal, that's actually a very very good question, and the question was brought up when alex tsakiris of skeptiko asked this to gary habermas when he interviewed him . Gary correctly answered that Nde's show that naturalism and materialsm are definetly the odd man out , and he also said this is why there needs to be more data introduced into this like the historicity of the resurrection . It's interesting to note that most of the times alex makes materialists/naturalists squirm when nailing them on the evidence for the afterlife from Nde's but in the interview u can see alex himself not wanting to discuss the historicity of the resurrection with gary . Alex has brought a few anti Christian experts on his show and he was always agreeing with them on their views of the accuracy and historicity of scripture but when they brought the resurrection man gary habermas on alex kindly avoided the debate on that. All in all it was an extremely nice and civil interview . What alex shares with all of us here is that he thinks the evidence or the afterlife is strong , but he's a general universalist in that he believes that there are many paths to God.

I on the other hand am an inclusivist who believes that the most important thing is that we are seeking God with all our hearts . I just don't see God sending someone to hell for not being in the right place of not knowing him or not hearing his word correctly (ie such as an extremist legalist preacher scaring someone from God by preaching the fire and brimestone gospel , or someone growing up in another country that never had a chance to know Christ), but this is my view and there are others that disagree with it , but I feel that inclusivism maintains the death and resurrection of Christ without diminishing its importance .

Maybe those people who had a different worldview nde just weren't ready yet for the fullness of God's word or they were fooled by the deceiver . I don't think anyone fully knows that answer , but socalexile, I think we both agree that God is not only the God of justice but also the God of mercy, compassion , empathy and Understanding . He knows our hearts better then we know them.

Randall Rouser the evangelical appologist made a very interesting quote where he said he is an inclusivist but a hopeful universalist. Now I didn't say he is a universalist