Evidence for God from Science

God is NOT fair in the sense that He does NOT go out of His way to convince people of His existence BEYOND what He has done and continues to do.
God IS FAIR in the sense that He gives ALL the same evidence.
The choice to believe is and always has been, up to the individual.

Yeaaaaah...riiiiight...this is where things start to get really tricky!

Let me ask you something: if God gave evidence for His existence to a chair, would you say that the chair had enough to believe in God? That it was its choice?

I don't think you would. For one simple reason: chairs don't think. Chairs have no intelligence to process something like "evidence". They don't even know the evidence is there (well, at least we assume they don't...). So...what about babies? What about those unlucky babies that die right after they come out of their mother's uterus? Do they have intelligence to choose whether they believe in God or not? I don't think they have. Now, you might say that babies go to Heaven, as mr. Deem himself wrote (which is already way too weird, since babies apparently lack that thing called "empathy, which would mean that either they wouldn't care about God, Jesus and His "children" on Heaven...or...that their personality has to be changed when they come to Heaven - which is basically brainwashing), but that doesn't stop them from not having the same evidence that we have, right? I mean, they do have the evidence, but they don't know it's there. That's like not having any evidence at all! So, with this in mind, are all the humans really "given" the same evidence?

And not only the babies; what about those who have brain disorders? Those who affect thought so badly that they can't even process information enough for such a complex belief? Those who behave almost like animals, leading several humans to think there's no big difference between we and animals other than a more complex brain? Do they have the intelligence to process the evidence for God?

I know, this sucks, but these ambiguities are one of the main reasons I can't manage to believe in the God of the Bible. Me...and some of the people I know, that is...

It's funny that people focus on God's existence.
That much (God's existence) is obvious.

"Yeah, right"... Well "yeah, right" to God's existence isn't obvious.
It just depends on which side of the tracks you're on. Don't you see this?
The real question you should be asking is why some people so obviously see God exists, whereas you and others do not?
It isn't for a lack of "evidence" or "proof" but rather there is something else going here.

REGARDLESS, what is important isn't God's existence per se, but rather placing one's hope in Christ.
1 Cor 1:20-25 —

• 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

You can believe in God all you want and it isn't going to help you at the end of the day when you come face-to-face.

Whether or not Christian. Here is a hypothetical situation.
Picture for a moment you've died. Now picture waking up outside of your body.
You then start travelling towards a very bright light as many people in NDEs often report.

What would you be thinking and feeling? Dread. Awe. Amazement. I hope I'm right. Holy cr@p.

You know even as a Christian, we hope in Christ... but if we're wrong then you would be right to pity us and those who believe.
1 Cor 15:13-19 —

• 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

MBPrata wrote:

God is NOT fair in the sense that He does NOT go out of His way to convince people of His existence BEYOND what He has done and continues to do.
God IS FAIR in the sense that He gives ALL the same evidence.
The choice to believe is and always has been, up to the individual.

Yeaaaaah...riiiiight...this is where things start to get really tricky!

Let me ask you something: if God gave evidence for His existence to a chair, would you say that the chair had enough to believe in God? That it was its choice?

I don't think you would. For one simple reason: chairs don't think. Chairs have no intelligence to process something like "evidence". They don't even know the evidence is there (well, at least we assume they don't...). So...what about babies? What about those unlucky babies that die right after they come out of their mother's uterus? Do they have intelligence to choose whether they believe in God or not? I don't think they have. Now, you might say that babies go to Heaven, as mr. Deem himself wrote (which is already way too weird, since babies apparently lack that thing called "empathy, which would mean that either they wouldn't care about God, Jesus and His "children" on Heaven...or...that their personality has to be changed when they come to Heaven - which is basically brainwashing), but that doesn't stop them from not having the same evidence that we have, right? I mean, they do have the evidence, but they don't know it's there. That's like not having any evidence at all! So, with this in mind, are all the humans really "given" the same evidence?

And not only the babies; what about those who have brain disorders? Those who affect thought so badly that they can't even process information enough for such a complex belief? Those who behave almost like animals, leading several humans to think there's no big difference between we and animals other than a more complex brain? Do they have the intelligence to process the evidence for God?

I know, this sucks, but these ambiguities are one of the main reasons I can't manage to believe in the God of the Bible. Me...and some of the people I know, that is...

Not believing in God, but wanting scientific evidence of God is like asking a person to marry you, while you don't believe in their love, or in them at all. It's simply not on.

Every created thing is evidence of God to start with anyhow. But God is not too concerned about what we think about nature, but whether we are picking up on being loved by Him.

You can understand why God does not want to be known by anything else other than faith that works by love,because God is love.
If it were possible for God to be known by anything other than love, such as a lab test or fire works, it would degrade the Holiness of God. But it cannot and should not be done. Because God cannot be analysed or measured, and it would be a lie about who He really is - Purity, Life, Love etc, an eternal existence far beyond comprehension.

Yet God can be accepted and understood by all through love, no matter how ignorant or damaged, our needs call for protection and love, even a deformed and helpless life becomes God's object of intense care, not rejection.

So don't worry about, retards and babies, they will have eternal life on the day of the resurrection, they have no malice do they? But the quibbling, analytical, peering unbelievers will not inherit eternal life, because they are too weak and ready to dismiss God at the drop of a hat.

Miracles and fireworks don't prove God exists anyway, they just wow people who end up forgetting the whole thing.
God spoke when He gave the commandments, the people were so impressed they pooped themselves and ran, but a few days later the people were all dancing and getting drunk over an idol.

So, no matter how far our eyeballs pop out, or how much of an adrenalin high we experience, nothing of the kind really allows us to know God.

MBPrata wrote:

God is NOT fair in the sense that He does NOT go out of His way to convince people of His existence BEYOND what He has done and continues to do.
God IS FAIR in the sense that He gives ALL the same evidence.
The choice to believe is and always has been, up to the individual.

Yeaaaaah...riiiiight...this is where things start to get really tricky!

Let me ask you something: if God gave evidence for His existence to a chair, would you say that the chair had enough to believe in God? That it was its choice?

I don't think you would. For one simple reason: chairs don't think. Chairs have no intelligence to process something like "evidence". They don't even know the evidence is there (well, at least we assume they don't...). So...what about babies? What about those unlucky babies that die right after they come out of their mother's uterus? Do they have intelligence to choose whether they believe in God or not? I don't think they have. Now, you might say that babies go to Heaven, as mr. Deem himself wrote (which is already way too weird, since babies apparently lack that thing called "empathy, which would mean that either they wouldn't care about God, Jesus and His "children" on Heaven...or...that their personality has to be changed when they come to Heaven - which is basically brainwashing), but that doesn't stop them from not having the same evidence that we have, right? I mean, they do have the evidence, but they don't know it's there. That's like not having any evidence at all! So, with this in mind, are all the humans really "given" the same evidence?

And not only the babies; what about those who have brain disorders? Those who affect thought so badly that they can't even process information enough for such a complex belief? Those who behave almost like animals, leading several humans to think there's no big difference between we and animals other than a more complex brain? Do they have the intelligence to process the evidence for God?

I know, this sucks, but these ambiguities are one of the main reasons I can't manage to believe in the God of the Bible. Me...and some of the people I know, that is...

I am not sure what your point is to be honest...
It seems like you are trying to figure out how God goes about deciding who is saved and who isn't, is that it?
Well, that is a simple question to answer my friend:
God KNOWS ALL, so He KNOWS why someone does or does not believe.

It seems like you are trying to figure out how God goes about deciding who is saved and who isn't, is that it?
Well, that is a simple question to answer my friend: God KNOWS ALL, so He KNOWS why someone does or does not believe.

People don't believe per whatever their will and attitude toward God is. It's a matter of the human will - to acknowledge, to listen and positively respond to whatever it is that He has already shown them and whatever He is trying to show them. But as God is a free being and as we, created in His image, are likewise, then we can also be unwilling, we can reject and resist Him. God does not force Himself upon a person - even though what He offers is incredible, both here and a later eternity in Heaven. But a person must be willing to let God enlighten and lead them to HIS salvation. Nonetheless, even though He will not force Himself on a person, His justice has demands severe, eternal consequences for he that permanently rejects God, he that wants to remain his own little god.

Philip wrote:

It seems like you are trying to figure out how God goes about deciding who is saved and who isn't, is that it?
Well, that is a simple question to answer my friend: God KNOWS ALL, so He KNOWS why someone does or does not believe.

People don't believe per whatever their will and attitude toward God is. It's a matter of the human will - to acknowledge, to listen and positively respond to whatever it is that He has already shown them and whatever He is trying to show them. But as God is a free being and as we, created in His image, are likewise, then we can also be unwilling, we can reject and resist Him. God does not force Himself upon a person - even though what He offers is incredible, both here and a later eternity in Heaven. But a person must be willing to let God enlighten and lead them to HIS salvation. Nonetheless, even though He will not force Himself on a person, His justice has demands severe, eternal consequences for he that permanently rejects God, he that wants to remain his own little god.

The understanding that " God is Love" helps us to understand why God does NOT force, does not "stalk", does not want is to come to Him other than by free will and free choice.
Anyone that has loved and been loved knows that you can NOT force it, it can't happen by threats and, perhaps most tellingly, when we ask/need "evidence" or "proof" of someone's love for us it typically means that we feel it is NOT there.
BUT God has given us the best and most significant evidence of His Love: Jesus Christ.
God's love is compassion, it is self-sacrifice, it is other-centered, in short, it is all we NEED.
In Jesus we see a God that would do anything for US, anything we need that is, not everything we want.
A God that gives up everything for us, to be one of us and live like Us.
A God that GIVES us a gift, THE GIFT, the highest gift possible and ONLY ASKS for one thing so that we may have that gift:
Belief.
NOT in any THING or any ACTION but in ONE PERSON:
Jesus.

Not believing in God, but wanting scientific evidence of God is like asking a person to marry you, while you don't believe in their love, or in them at all.

Not necessarily. People marry for different reasons, and it seems that you are implying a marriage with love. Now, I personally think that marriages with love are the best ones, but other types of marriages can also work.
Besides, I'm not asking for scientific evidence of God specifically in my last post (although I would aprecciate some...); most of my posts (at least, try to) ask for logic evidence of God. That's right: in most cases, logic is more important for me than scientific evidence. Notice that my first topic here on godandscienc.org was a topic questioning the logic of God's thought. And when I talked about babies and brain disorders, I was looking for the logic applied in those cases.

So don't worry about, retards and babies, they will have eternal life on the day of the resurrection, they have no malice do they?

1. Tecnically, the answer to that question isn't up to us, but to the ones who study the human brain/mind/whatever.

2. Even if those kind of people do have eternal life on that day, that doesn't answer solve any of the problems I exposed in my post. Such as: do they "have" evidence for the existence of God? Are they given the same evidence that every "normal" human has when it comes to decide whether there's a God or not? Are they* going to be "brainwashed" when they enter into Heaven or will they keep their personality, leading them to only caring about themselves and not caring about God, Jesus and the people that God has chosen?


* - well, this one is more about the babies, I guess...

MB wrote: Even if those kind of people do have eternal life on that day, that doesn't answer solve any of the problems I exposed in my post. Such as: do they "have" evidence for the existence of God? Are they given the same evidence that every "normal" human has when it comes to decide whether there's a God or not? Are they* going to be "brainwashed" when they enter into Heaven or will they keep their personality, leading them to only caring about themselves and not caring about God, Jesus and the people that God has chosen?


* - well, this one is more about the babies, I guess...

MB, those mentally impaired and children under a certain age (whatever that is - would likely depend, person to person and as to what they can understand). There is good circumstantial evidence in Scripture that one must be aware of their sins and that they are avoiding or rejecting God. And Romans 1 makes it clear that one need not know about Jesus to reject God - as He is part of Whom God is. So those without the Gospel CAN reject God. Scripture tells us that ALL know of God's existence and basic right and wrong. Desiring to know God is as close as their own breath. Geography and time is irrelevant to God being capable of reaching those in the most remote place. But when they deliberately reject all that He has ALREADY revealed about Himself, when they go against what even their own inate conscience tells them is wrong, then they are aware that they are going against God, but that they want their own way.

As for babies, it is possible that they grow up in Heaven and thus will fully know Jesus as He actually is.

No, all people don't have the same evidence. But missionaries can all tell you incredible stories of people coming to Christ in the most obscure ways and from the most remote places. Scripture tells us that God deliberately placed people in place, time and history, fully FOREknowing whether or not they would seek or reject Him, and strategically placed them so that they WOULD find Him. It is a lie from hell that God prevents people from knowing what they need to be saved. Most don't WANT to know God - they avoid and resist Him, even if that means they are only running from Him and refusing to acknowledge His presence and goodness in what He provides them. That is enough to condemn them. Why? Because EVIDENCE is NOT their problem. They are given enough to want to know and to seek more understanding about God IF they so desire (and He is more than happy to provide that). But God has always known EVERY single person who, no matter the knowledge of the Gospel or spectacular evidences they are provided, will nonetheless avoid and reject Him. And so He places people in time and history per that foreknowledge and in conjunction with His overall purposes and plans.

Many sat at the feet of Jesus and saw Him do the most amazing miracles, and yet they would not believe in Him. They even accused Him of being of the devil. This is because MOST people do not have a lack of evidence problem - even the heathen know a universe did not create itself, that from nothing an incredible universe just created itself. There is purpose and order and laws that govern all. There is a universal morality that mankind typically agrees upon. Almost all peoples have belief in something supernatural. Etc. Today, in America, people have churches on every other street corner. The internet is awash in Bibles of a huge number of languages. Apologetics websites explaining prophecy, Scripture and a tremendous number of basic, universal questions is available. People have more info about God, Scripture, related issues available than at any other time in history - and yet we live in an era of tremendous unbelief. Again, it's because EVIDENCE is not most people's problems. They want to convince themselves of God's non-existence so they can follow their own ways and keep that little god they see in the mirror happy.

No, God doesn't give everyone the same evidences - because everyone doesn't need the same knowledge. But He gives them MORE than enough. And for the man determined to resist and reject God, NO amount of evidence will be sufficient. IF they want to know God, they CAN. But Scripture teaches that most don't seek Him. God brought Israel out of 400+ years of Egyptian bondage through an incredible series of awesome miracles - and note that each also was designed to expose the many false God's the Egyptians had put their faith in. But how long was Moses out of camp before the Israelites are building a Golden Calf to bow down to - a "god" made with their own hands - one that they could satisfy its supposed requirements while conveniently allowing them to live as THEY so desired (as opposed to the God who had just delivered them).

MB, you know what - forget about the babies, the mentally challenged, those off in some remote jungle - Jesus is asking YOU, one whom has all the resources you will ever need: "Who do YOU say that I am?" As YOU have far more than enough information to answer this question.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

MBPrata wrote:Any ideas on this issue?

Yeah. Whatever God does to prove his existence will be of no consequence to unbelievers. God could send ten plagues on Egypt, split the waters of the sea to let the Israelites pass through, rain down sustenance from the sky to feed a people on a 40-year journey, make sure their sandals never wore out on that journey, stop the flow of the Jordan river to let his people cross over into Israel, have the walls of Jericho fall without any reason, impress upon some guy called Isaiah the words describing Cyrus and the coming Messiah, feed thousands with food scraps several times, raise a few guys from death, impress many with teachings, rise from the dead after his own execution...

Walking on water? that's nothing! ...whatever...in the end, the scum that we humans are will always find some way to say that it wasn't true. So, as for Jesus flying through the air and transplanting mountains here and there as you suggested, you wouldn't have believed those tricks anyway.

The problem is with you, not with what Jesus did to prove who he is.

FL

I really appreciate your post up there Furstentum Liechtenstein and I
couldn't agree with you more. Please permit me to add the following
thoughts.

My view is that even a 10 Year Visit To Heaven would not present enough
evidence to the typical "John Atheist" to turn him into a believing Christian.
For argument's sake, let us say that:

John Atheist personally meets the Lord Christ in Heaven. He visits Heaven
for 10 years and personally gets to know the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter,
all the other apostles, and Abraham, Moses, King David, and thousands of angels.
He meets his deceased mother and father in Heaven and one of his sisters.

That would be the "ultimate Christian apologetic" for John Atheist but that visit
would not make John Atheist a true believing Christian even though John saw
"before his very eyes" the absolute proof that Christianity is the absolute truth.
Why is that true? Answer: Because there is nothing about a visit or a place or
a large collection of solid evidences that has any supernatural power to
supernaturally regenerate the human heart ...

... so after 10 years of merely visiting Heaven (or 500 years for that matter)
John Atheist would still NOT believe on the Lord Christ as his personal Savior and
would NOT be trusting in His death on the cross as the propitiation for his personal
sins against God. Why is this true? Because a visit and a place and a set of logical
evidences no matter how convincing can only give you a "head belief", they do not
have the power to regenerate the dead human soul so that it can now respond to
spiritual truth. Regeneration is the vital first step in becoming a true Christian
believer and this vital first step has an immediate vital second step, namely coming to
believe in the Lord Christ as one personal Savior with a belief produced supernaturally
in the heart by the Holy Spirit.

All the steps towards becoming a true Christian are supernatural and are not
produced by the sinner, they are all produced supernaturally by the supernatural power
of the Holy Spirit as a free gift based 100% upon pure grace and mercy. Therefore a
VISIT or a PLACE or a COLLECTION of irrefutable evidences cannot produce it, there
isn't anything supernatural about a visit or a place or a collection of evidences.

I think all Christians would agree that there are 3 supernatural elements involved
in becoming a true believing Christian:

First, the Holy Spirit supernaturally regenerates the spiritually dead human soul so
that it can now understand and positively respond to spiritual truth. (Jh.3:3)

Second, the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes it possible for this "new life" (that is
the newly regenerated soul) to come to actually believe on the Lord Christ as Savior.
(Jh. 3:16)

Third, the Holy Spirit supernaturally begins the lifelong journey of slowly teaching
this "new life" the Christian virtues such as tough love, patience, kindness, empathy,
sympathy, peace, faith, hope, etc. (Gal.5:22-23) Note: Some degree of measurable
success in this third area occurs in all true Christians. Its impossible to be a true
Christian and have zero progress in being taught the Christian virtues by the Holy
Spirit. Its true that some Christians seem to make better and faster progress than
some other Christians, but ALL true Christians make some measurable progress in
learning the Christian virtues as they live their lives.

Based upon all that up there, you can see why presenting John Atheist with good solid
reasons why it was (for example) morally right for God to order the slaughter of the
Canaanites is not going to produce saving faith in John Atheist's heart.

You could satisfactorily answer all of John Atheist's "hard questions" about Christianity
but doing that would NOT produce saving faith in John's heart, because as you said
in your post, the problem that prevents saving belief lies in the heart of the unbeliever
and not in lack of evidences.

Anyway that's just a few thoughts I had to add to what I thought was your excellent
post that I quoted up there.

♦

JackHectorman: First, the Holy Spirit supernaturally regenerates the spiritually dead human soul so
that it can now understand and positively respond to spiritual truth. (Jh.3:3)

Second, the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes it possible for this "new life" (that is
the newly regenerated soul) to come to actually believe on the Lord Christ as Savior.
(Jh. 3:16)

Jack, that sounds like you believe in Five Point Calvinism - a perversion of the Gospel. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but ALL people have an opportunity to be saved - do you not believe that? Surely you do not believe that God doesn't desire ALL come to saving belief and understanding of Him? Do you believe there are some people whom God does not want to have even the ABILITY to believe, that He actually INSURES and DESIRES that unbelievers remain in rebellion to Him? People CAN respond to what God shows them - and they can do so BEFORE salvation. Or they can resist Him. It's THEIR God-given, God-provided-and-enabled (through the Cross) choice. Of COURSE God must give everyone the ability to believe and have faith - and He does so for EVERYONE who desires as He enlightens. And He enlightens ALL whom He knows will positively respond and receive Him. Our part is merely RECEIVING what is offered and it cannot be bought or earned.

Philip wrote: Jack, that sounds like you believe in Five Point Calvinism - a perversion of the Gospel.

I have very dear friends (through one God reached me) who believe in 'perversion'.
Lol.

Philip wrote:

JackHectorman: First, the Holy Spirit supernaturally regenerates the spiritually dead human soul so
that it can now understand and positively respond to spiritual truth. (Jh.3:3)

Second, the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes it possible for this "new life" (that is
the newly regenerated soul) to come to actually believe on the Lord Christ as Savior.
(Jh. 3:16)

Jack, that sounds like you believe in Five Point Calvinism - a perversion of the Gospel. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but ALL people have an opportunity to be saved - do you not believe that? Surely you do not believe that God doesn't desire ALL come to saving belief and understanding of Him? Do you believe there are some people whom God does not want to have even the ABILITY to believe, that He actually INSURES and DESIRES that unbelievers remain in rebellion to Him? People CAN respond to what God shows them - and they can do so BEFORE salvation. Or they can resist Him. It's THEIR God-given, God-provided-and-enabled (through the Cross) choice. Of COURSE God must give everyone the ability to believe and have faith - and He does so for EVERYONE who desires as He enlightens. And He enlightens ALL whom He knows will positively respond and receive Him. Our part is merely RECEIVING what is offered and it cannot be bought or earned.

I don't think Calvinism entered there, the Holy Spirit convicts all. Otherwise they would have a case to revoke their sentence in the judgement.

Philip wrote:

JackHectorman: First, the Holy Spirit supernaturally regenerates the spiritually dead human soul so
that it can now understand and positively respond to spiritual truth. (Jh.3:3)

Second, the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes it possible for this "new life" (that is
the newly regenerated soul) to come to actually believe on the Lord Christ as Savior.
(Jh. 3:16)

Jack, that sounds like you believe in Five Point Calvinism - a perversion of the Gospel. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but ALL people have an opportunity to be saved - do you not believe that? Surely you do not believe that God doesn't desire ALL come to saving belief and understanding of Him? Do you believe there are some people whom God does not want to have even the ABILITY to believe, that He actually INSURES and DESIRES that unbelievers remain in rebellion to Him? People CAN respond to what God shows them - and they can do so BEFORE salvation. Or they can resist Him. It's THEIR God-given, God-provided-and-enabled (through the Cross) choice. Of COURSE God must give everyone the ability to believe and have faith - and He does so for EVERYONE who desires as He enlightens. And He enlightens ALL whom He knows will positively respond and receive Him. Our part is merely RECEIVING what is offered and it cannot be bought or earned.

Hello Philip,

I was merely trying to make a positive cheerful uplifting contribution to the thread and
to the thoughts expressed by Furstentum Liechtenstein, I was not trying to get into an
argument over the distinctive doctrines of the magnificent Calvinistic Theological System,
a theological system held to be dear and true by huge numbers of some the most noble
and distinguished lights and ornaments of Christendom who have fought long and hard
to advance the cause of the Lord Christ throughout the world.

The list of God-fearing worthies who have preached and proclaimed the Calvinistic
Theological System is long indeed and within quick and easy reach.

One of them was the great Baptist preacher Charles H. Spurgeon, one of the greatest
soul-winners for Christ that ever lived, and moreover said Spurgeon:

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the
truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot
shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine.
John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder
through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

I think its safe to say that the great gospel preacher Charles Spurgeon did not share your
view that Calvinism is a perversion of the gospel, nor did the great Calvin, Luther,
B.B. Warfield, Charles Hodge, the great Christian Church historian Phillip Schaff,
the great Church father Augustine, the great Christian theologians R.L. Dabney,
W.G.T. Shedd, the large number of men that wrote the Westminster Confession,
and the millions of Christians that make up the congregations of all the Reformed
Christians Churches worldwide.

I wrote all that up there only to make the point that while Calvinism may be a
perversion in your opinion, it is not held to be a perversion in the minds and
hearts of huge numbers of true born again God fearing Christians throughout
America and the world who are working hard to advance the Lord Christ's
Great Commission throughout the world

/Big Grin ... I did not write a single word of that up there in order to get into
any argument whatsoever regarding the Calvinists vs. Arminian controversy,
which I view as a waste of valuable time. I do not argue regarding the specific
doctrines of the Calvinist vs. Arminian controversy in threads (or anywhere
else) in the sense of attempting to convince anyone to come to believe the
distinctive doctrines of the Calvinistic Theological System.

I have in the past on occasion in threads referenced and recommended the
great works supporting the Calvinistic Theological System, and I have given
my personal testimony regarding the spiritual blessings produced within my
heart and mind via coming to trust totally in the Sovereign God, and so I have
done such as that, but that's the extent of my interest in this subject so far as
promoting it in threads. I only wrote to you about Calvinism because you
mentioned Calvinism.

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

PS
I hope you and yours had a very nice Thanksgiving. I note that Christmas is right
around the corner. This is my favorite time of year, my wife, children, many grandchildren,
my in-laws, and friends all gathering around for the festivities thanking the Lord for His watch
care over us all for another year, and for His blessings upon us all.


`

1over137 wrote:

Philip wrote: Jack, that sounds like you believe in Five Point Calvinism - a perversion of the Gospel.

I have very dear friends (through one God reached me) who believe in 'perversion'.
Lol.

Me too. /smile

________________


"through one God reached me"__1over137

That was a blessing to read.

♫