Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:Audie, I meant basically the 'why' questions. Why universe is? Why we are here?

I guess we all have these existential questions about ourselves. Why / how the universe exists seems to me a question far beyond human capacity to answer, certainly at this point. Its good sport to try, thro' philosophy or science, to probe. A lot of humility is called for, tho, dont you think? We surely are very very far from being in a position to say its been figured out.

For those who do "revealed truth" I suppose that can be seen as a shortcut. I dont accept any of it, but, what do I know?

Some people do not see any purpose for people to exist, universe to exist.

Depending a bit on what is meant by "purpose" that would be me. Like I said of a waterfall; what purpose has it?

They imagine that if some intelligent X created the universe, the universe would be 'intelligent'.

Ok, never heard of such an odd idea, but ok.

I imagine they imagine that the intelligent world would be without suffering, killing, death. I do not know what else they require for an intelligent creator but MBPrata gave some more insight into it.

.

Seems like imaginary people imagining imaginary things..?

Audie,

Too much of imagination, I guess.

And the waterfall has an important role in the water cycle. Water raining down on flowers and trees, collected by rivers, brought to oceans, evaporated back to sky.

And besides, it gives wonderful rainbows.

Wow, this escalated a little bit since I was here for the last time! Ok, let's see...

3. To your last point: can you give an example of such coincidence?

Sure. These fellows: http://www.cracked.com/article_20667_5- ... re_p2.html
And maybe some more: http://www.cracked.com/article_18788_th ... -time.html (even though these come more from men, not from nature).

To your next four points. It all shows me that we do live in a fallen world. Good that you do not like this fallen world.

Nonsense. Either God wants us to see His intelligence and/or care for humans by looking at our planet or He doesn't!* Or else...are we supposed to believe He deliberately left some details which could indicate intelligence and some others which could indicate the lack of it?!
Also, I...actually kinda like the Earth. Not the rest of the universe in general, but the Earth is kinda nice...

* - (not literally; I do realize the world isn't only black and white. But, please, don't miss the point)

1over137 wrote:Audie,

Too much of imagination, I guess.

And the waterfall has an important role in the water cycle. Water raining down on flowers and trees, collected by rivers, brought to oceans, evaporated back to sky.

And besides, it gives wonderful rainbows.

We all love waterfalls. I have a favourite one. But none of that is about a "why", is it?
http://www.timeout.com.hk/media/content ... ungluk.jpg

MBPrata wrote:

Atheists are in Denial of their faith,they look to science and man for validation of their atheistic beliefs,they are fully willing to put their faith in man,not realizing how unwise this is because man has been wrong so many times throughout history whether he believed in God or not.

Most atheists I know put their faith in man not because they fully believe in man, but because they say that's the only way to be happy in the "real world". They do realize man is not perfect, but he's everything they have.

Some atheists think science already has an answer yet other ones realize not yet.

What answer are you talking about? Just for the record, spontaneous creation is an answer. Whether it is right or not, that's another story, but it is totally an answer.

Spontaneous creation? Tell a scientist you want to see a demonstration and he/she cannot tinker with matter at all.They must show it can form itself into the vast universe with life on the earth,now I cannot choose for you what to put your faith in but as for me I put my faith in In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth because when it comes to believing in something you cannot see by faith then it is always wiser to believe God over man.Man has been wrong so many times throughout history in what he believed was true only to be proven wrong over time and yet there are consequences for being wrong.The bible tells us there is no one righteous,no not one this has been proven true throughout history whether man believed in God or not.

MBPrata wrote:
- "Build" humans with the exact same material used to build the whole universe (i.e, atoms, particles and all that stuff), which could lead them to think they had the same value of everything in the universe?


I missed this one before.

Well, I do not know what other "material" would be better to use. We need to eat, we need to touch things. We need to interact with particles and atoms from this world.

Ok, let me divide this.

Well, I do not know what other "material" would be better to use.

Any other material which could help us believing we're more than just some dust our universe "spit".

We need to eat

Here's a solution: make a rule which says humans don't have to eat. That would actually help us believing we're not just some evolved apes which happen to be more intelligent that other animals.

we need to touch things

Here's a solution: make a rule which says humans don't have to touch . That would actually help us believing we're not just some evolved apes which happen to be more intelligent that other animals.

Spontaneous creation? Tell a scientist you want to see a demonstration and he/she cannot tinker with matter at all.They must show it can form itself into the vast universe with life on the earth

You mean, like God showed us He could form a universe?

MBPrata wrote:

Spontaneous creation? Tell a scientist you want to see a demonstration and he/she cannot tinker with matter at all.They must show it can form itself into the vast universe with life on the earth

You mean, like God showed us He could form a universe?

Believe God or man?Believe God and be right,believe man and be wrong,why take the risk.I don't have to see God create it,but I do need to see a man who believes it can happen some other way demonstrate it,and he can't do it and it requires more faith than to believe God created it,it is much easier to believe God created it,much easier. I already see man who God created in his image creating things so God could do it easily.

I don't have to see God create it,but I do need to see a man who believes it can happen some other way demonstrate it

That's unfair and unbalanced. And that - the second characteristic, most of all - works terribly in debates.

RE: "Most atheists I know claim that the universe has blindly created and the thing is...their arguments are, for the most part, pretty logical. So I keep wobbling between theism and atheism..."

There are two types of atheists. Ones who claim God does NOT exists. This is very easy to dismiss because you can never prove a negative. At some future time God may reveal herself and there would be indisputable evidence of her existence.

The second type takes the following position by choice. Since there's no evidence to support the existence of God then all discussions of God are meaningless, irrelevant, and deserving of derision.

RE: "the atheists I'm talking about are more intelligent than...than that! From their point of view, the universe isn't the supreme force, since it had a beginning. They claim that a supreme force - it has no name, but you can call it X, to make things easier - created both our universe and the laws of physics which operate inside our universe."

Not all atheists think the Universe had a creation event. The argument goes like this and is very logical. Since we have no evidence that nothingness ever existed, and somethingness does exists, therefore, since we have no evidence to contrary somethingness always existed. Since somethingness always existed you have no first cause. It's logical but very painful in the head for some people.

Many people think the Big Bang is the beginning of our Universe. But there's nothing in the mathematics to counter the idea that white holes come from black holes. So our Big Bang could be the result of star collapsing to a black hole in another dimension. This idea really expands our concept of time! Sadly to say a Universe this BIG is very hard to comprehend.

RE: "And that X was always here with its laws/ways to create universe? Probably, since it is the supreme force. And now my question: What logical arguments do they have?"

Given our lack of evidence and full understanding how the Universe was created, you could argue this requires the existence of God to be a first cause. I think this is not a fruitful argument with most atheists. I think each of us has to choose having faith in God regardless of the lack of evidence. I don't think we will ever know for sure because good science requires a testable hypothesis. And most of the big theories about the Universe are very hard to confirm. And I would even go further and say it is an act of faith by most scientists to assume all the laws of nature can be represented by the language of mathematics. Just because nature tends to surprisely follow mathematical rules in a well defined context doesn't mean it is universally true in every possible context. So when I argue with atheists, I like to tell them that God is the force in the Universe that keeps our full understanding of nature always just one step beyond our full comprehension.

Since somethingness always existed

This is the first cause. Existence.

RE: RE: "Since somethingness always existed"

RE: "This is the first cause. Existence."

Sorry to be argumentative and also I am not atheist. But the argument is somethingness always existed and there is no first cause. The argument made by the atheists is since we have no evidence or proof that nothingness ever existed at all, therefore, nothingness does not exist reality and is only a construct of our imaginations. Hence the conclusion since nothingness only exists in our imagination. Existence is real because we experience it. Nothingness does not exist in reality because we do not experience it, and therefore, is just a delusion. Since existence exists in reality and not our imagination, then somethingness has always existed. This is no different and just as hard to comprehend as saying a supreme God has always existed and what is God's first cause. Except the athesist is making the same argument without using the word God.

Human language is a map of reality. The map never has as much detail as the reality it represents. I think the problem with existence arguments for God is they always fall short. Not because what they represent does not have merit but because of the nature and limitations of our human language. Human language is inherently ambiguous and self-contradictory. I had this argument with a scientist friend of mine who swore the scientific method was to be worshipped above all other dogmas. I argue "good" science is an opinion and all objectivity is subjectively determined. His argument eventually degraded to I'm right and you are a wrong stupid poopy head.

But the argument is somethingness always existed and there is no first cause.

Saying this shows someone failed to understand the argument of the necessity of a first causer. Or prime mover, or principle cause.
They aren't addressing the argument.

This is no different and just as hard to comprehend as saying a supreme God has always existed and what is God's first cause.

Again, this shows the atheist doesn't understand the argument presented. So to enable him in this thinking is doing him disservice and not speaking truth. And making him believe he does understand what he is talking about. When he doesn't.

Some concerning things I'm wondering about:

There are two types of atheists. Ones who claim God does NOT exists. This is very easy to dismiss because you can never prove a negative. At some future time God may reveal herself and there would be indisputable evidence of her existence.

Why do you say you are a Christian when you are referring to God as 'herself' and 'her'? That is insulting God by not using the terms He chooses to use for Himself and the reflection that portrays of our relationship to Him.

I think each of us has to choose having faith in God regardless of the lack of evidence. I don't think we will ever know for sure because good science requires a testable hypothesis.

There is evidence for God. And faith is trust based off of reason. I trust God = I have faith in God and that faith comes from evidence that cannot be unseen but is most commonly misunderstood. Science is a superficial way to understand reality. You need to talk philosophy and metaphysics if you want to know the evidence which is the foundation of science (which could not exist without the foundation of reality revealed through the study of metaphysics and philosophy).

Since there's no evidence to support the existence of God then all discussions of God are meaningless, irrelevant, and deserving of derision.

I don't know if you believe this or not and I won't assume. But it's obviously false to claim 'there's no evidence to support the existence of God'. The problem is the evidence hasn't been seen. And many things will prevent one from seeing what is obvious. The main one today is how the minds of people have been raised in the end of this age. Which stems from pride, the gateway to destruction. Regardless, there is evidence, proof exists. And it's waiting to be seen.

Given our lack of evidence and full understanding how the Universe was created, you could argue this requires the existence of God to be a first cause.

You are right to think of what the first cause is before the first cause of our temporal existence. As that is to understand God better. As He is beyond time and time is within Him. He is the first cause of this temporal realm as He is Existence. He always has existed and existence springs from Him, aka the prime mover, the first cause of an infinity of causes. Get it?

Dear MBPrata,

I wonder whether birds would notice that face when looking on the mountains from above. Would they wonder as humans do? We see shapes in the stars, we see things looking at clouds. Human brain is awesome.

And if you want to use that coincidence to show that intelligence is unnecessary then I want to show you human art several microns in size http://www.nanowerk.com/nanotechnology/ ... ogy_31.php. Awesome what intelligence can do.

Now if you read Genesis...

Genesis 1:28-31
28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

Genesis 3:16-19
To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

...and look at the current world, don't you see the world being left in sin, in death?

One my family member asked: why we have teeth with nerves? Why not having something like horse's hoof? Well, why do we lust for sweet lemonades and sweets?

God created the world the way he created and declared to be very good. But then after the fall cursed it and condemned it. Thankfully, at the same time he provided a rescue for those longing for him, for the pre-fall world.

1over137, I'm not sure I got what you meant with the link you showed here. I mean, it's a nice article, and all...but what's teh conclusion? That intelligence can form some cool-looking "pictures"? If it is, I'll give you that, but that doesn't eliminate the coincidences that showed incredible "pictures" with no intelligent intervention.

About those Bible parts...that's funny, I've actually read them when I believed in the God of the Bible. Now you bring them back to me in a different context...but...does that mean that only after the fall did God allow all those strange rules I mentioned which can lead humans to think we're just animals?
That could actually make sense. Altough it would still sound really unbalanced that God would give Adam and Eve so many reasons to believe in Him and so few for the future men to do the same...

Not that I think that God must be totally balance towards us. Just saying...