Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So what constitutes being a Christian then?, if it is a positive belief in Christ then isn't that a reliance on you doing something??

Ephesians 2:8-9 — "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

How such "faith" comes about (free will/pre-destination) and what it entails (rational belief/heart desire) are the issues of hot discussion.

Thanks K, this is what I was looking for, it is a heart desire, it is the condition of that heart, that is how you know Christ, it has nothing to do with knowledge or any works, this is why I believe in a universal reconciliation of everyone that desires Christ.

What if they believe Christ isn't God? Or they believe we can be "gods" like Christ?
Is there a sense is which their knowledge of Christ requires some truths?

People can be mistaken in their beliefs, that's like saying if evolution is not true then I am going to hell. It turns it back into a works based salvation, you must believe this and this and this to attain salvation and I don't believe that's what Christ wanted or required. Salvation is purely in God's hands for everyone that desires it, I think it is as simple as that and that's the message I get when I read Jesus' words.

Dan wrote:
Anyhow, How is that not a reliance on the self, you have to trust in all those things.

It's the opposite of relying on self. By trusting Christ, one essentially stops doing anything for salvation. Christ has done it all.

If Christ died, he died for everyone, not just the people who have a positive belief in him and he will draw all people too him that desire it.

Yes, Christ died for all. And his sacrifice paid for the sins of the world. All of them! So that means people don't go to hell because their sins aren't paid for(Christ paid the price for ALL sin). People don't go to heaven because they don't have eternal life. Eternal life which comes only by believing in Christ, John 3:16.

Dan wrote:
People can be mistaken in their beliefs, that's like saying if evolution is not true then I am going to hell. It turns it back into a works based salvation, you must believe this and this and this to attain salvation and I don't believe that's what Christ wanted or required. Salvation is purely in God's hands for everyone that desires it, I think it is as simple as that and that's the message I get when I read Jesus' words.

Dan,

That's simply not biblical. The bible doesn't say salvation is for everyone who desires it.

Salvation comes by faith. And It's not the "faith" that saves. It's the object of that faith that saves. Jesus Christ.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So what constitutes being a Christian then?, if it is a positive belief in Christ then isn't that a reliance on you doing something??

Ephesians 2:8-9 — "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

How such "faith" comes about (free will/pre-destination) and what it entails (rational belief/heart desire) are the issues of hot discussion.

Thanks K, this is what I was looking for, it is a heart desire, it is the condition of that heart, that is how you know Christ, it has nothing to do with knowledge or any works, this is why I believe in a universal reconciliation of everyone that desires Christ.

What if they believe Christ isn't God? Or they believe we can be "gods" like Christ?
Is there a sense is which their knowledge of Christ requires some truths?

People can be mistaken in their beliefs, that's like saying if evolution is not true then I am going to hell. It turns it back into a works based salvation, you must believe this and this and this to attain salvation and I don't believe that's what Christ wanted or required. Salvation is purely in God's hands for everyone that desires it, I think it is as simple as that and that's the message I get when I read Jesus' words.

That -- making belief a work -- kind of misses the the issue I feel.

There are actually two ways we can be with God:
1) Be as fully righteous as God is.
2) Have Christ mediate between you and God.

Now obviously our faults against God and God's complete righteousness, is the issue that makes us both incompatible.
Thus, for me to try go down the path of (1) I'm only ever going to receive God's just deserts -- righteous judgement and accordingly wrath.

"Works" needs to be seen within that context -- what we are unable to do.
We are unable to fulfill God's righteous standard, and so if God desired a relationship then another way was needed.
A way where God's righteousness could be satisfied, so it was no longer an obstacle between us and God.

Therefore the "work" that Christ did is that which we could not.
It isn't within our power to fix our relationship with God because our "works" are like filthy rags.
And now, it is at least partially within our power to choose Christ. To not do so means we will simply stand alone before God on judgement day.

So, a belief is not necessarily a "work" that saves, rather it's perhaps necessary restraint if we really want Christ in our corner.

It isn't that belief that saves us. It is Christ.
And if Christ isn't accepted but rejected, well then we stand on our own before God.
Belief isn't the cure. Christ is. Belief simply an outworking which shows that we do want Christ.

Now you could probably accept all that I've said without issue,
but the "work" you talk of re: belief, is very different from the "work" that we cannot do which Christ fulfilled.
Just want to make the distinction because without it, well no one needs to take any responsibility because Christ can just be liberally applied to all
(and Scripture is clear that this isn't the case, Christ stresses the importance on this life).

As for a "heart desire", you still need a correct heart desire right?
I would not like to be in the shoes of the person who just desires Christ, and yet doesn't really know who Christ is or why they need Him.
Just because someone desires something, doesn't mean that their desire is valid or correct itself.

It's like talking to someone through the Internet (i.e., the show Catfish).
People think they know the other person they're talking to, and they even might have all these feelings. Their heart desires them so much!
And then, face-to-face they realise it wasn't the person they had thought. Their bubble is burst. They feel betrayed. And stand alone.

It is possible some might desire "Christ," until they realise who he is actually is.
When they see that Christ is really God Almightly, Jehovah, the Creator of everything who knows... absolute fear and horror may set in.
Likewise it is possible some don't want Christ, until they realise who He is. And then again, absolute fear and horror sets in knowing they rejected and even scoffed.

What is important foundational to our being saved, isn't our belief or heart response.
Rather it is that Christ is standing beside us on Judgement Day rather than leaving us alone.
How do we hope to get Christ on our side? Well it requires a correct belief of some sort to accompany heart's desire.
At least I'd think it does. Otherwise a person could just be catfishing themselves with Christ.

What that correctness of belief entails which accompanies our heart's desire, well I'll throw up for discussion.

RickD wrote:

Dan wrote:
People can be mistaken in their beliefs, that's like saying if evolution is not true then I am going to hell. It turns it back into a works based salvation, you must believe this and this and this to attain salvation and I don't believe that's what Christ wanted or required. Salvation is purely in God's hands for everyone that desires it, I think it is as simple as that and that's the message I get when I read Jesus' words.

Dan,

That's simply not biblical. The bible doesn't say salvation is for everyone who desires it.

Salvation comes by faith. And It's not the "faith" that saves. It's the object of that faith that saves. Jesus Christ.

It is Biblical, we are both actually saying the same thing, just slightly differently. Everything is in Jesus' hands, we cannot save ourselves, stop putting qualifiers on it.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:

Dan wrote:
People can be mistaken in their beliefs, that's like saying if evolution is not true then I am going to hell. It turns it back into a works based salvation, you must believe this and this and this to attain salvation and I don't believe that's what Christ wanted or required. Salvation is purely in God's hands for everyone that desires it, I think it is as simple as that and that's the message I get when I read Jesus' words.

Dan,

That's simply not biblical. The bible doesn't say salvation is for everyone who desires it.

Salvation comes by faith. And It's not the "faith" that saves. It's the object of that faith that saves. Jesus Christ.

It is Biblical, we are both actually saying the same thing, just slightly differently. Everything is in Jesus' hands, we cannot save ourselves, stop putting qualifiers on it.

Qualifiers? What qualifiers am I putting on it that I shouldn't be?

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:

Dan wrote:
People can be mistaken in their beliefs, that's like saying if evolution is not true then I am going to hell. It turns it back into a works based salvation, you must believe this and this and this to attain salvation and I don't believe that's what Christ wanted or required. Salvation is purely in God's hands for everyone that desires it, I think it is as simple as that and that's the message I get when I read Jesus' words.

Dan,

That's simply not biblical. The bible doesn't say salvation is for everyone who desires it.

Salvation comes by faith. And It's not the "faith" that saves. It's the object of that faith that saves. Jesus Christ.

It is Biblical, we are both actually saying the same thing, just slightly differently. Everything is in Jesus' hands, we cannot save ourselves, stop putting qualifiers on it.

Qualifiers? What qualifiers am I putting on it that I shouldn't be?

I wasn't necessarily meaning you specifically, but the Church in general uses qualifiers like you must be baptised, believe in the trinity, understand intellectually who Jesus was etc...etc.. This puts God's grace, mercy and justice into a human box, which you just cannot do and brings the reliance back onto the believer rather than on Christ.

Kurieuo wrote: That -- making belief a work -- kind of misses the the issue I feel.

There are actually two ways we can be with God:
1) Be as fully righteous as God is.
2) Have Christ mediate between you and God.

Now obviously our faults against God and God's complete righteousness, is the issue that makes us both incompatible.
Thus, for me to try go down the path of (1) I'm only ever going to receive God's just deserts -- righteous judgement and accordingly wrath.

"Works" needs to be seen within that context -- what we are unable to do.
We are unable to fulfill God's righteous standard, and so if God desired a relationship then another way was needed.
A way where God's righteousness could be satisfied, so it was no longer an obstacle between us and God.

Therefore the "work" that Christ did is that which we could not.
It isn't within our power to fix our relationship with God because our "works" are like filthy rags.
And now, it is at least partially within our power to choose Christ. To not do so means we will simply stand alone before God on judgement day.

So, a belief is not necessarily a "work" that saves, rather it's perhaps necessary restraint if we really want Christ in our corner.

It isn't that belief that saves us. It is Christ.
And if Christ isn't accepted but rejected, well then we stand on our own before God.
Belief isn't the cure. Christ is. Belief simply an outworking which shows that we do want Christ.

Now you could probably accept all that I've said without issue,
but the "work" you talk of re: belief, is very different from the "work" that we cannot do which Christ fulfilled.
Just want to make the distinction because without it, well no one needs to take any responsibility because Christ can just be liberally applied to all
(and Scripture is clear that this isn't the case, Christ stresses the importance on this life).

Ok cool I see what you are saying and it makes sense. But say you are intellectually disabled and you can't form a belief about Christ are you culpable, say you were raised Muslim and indoctrinated to believe that Christianity was Polytheism, are you culpable, what if you had a car accident and had a brain injury and you lost your faith because you brain was altered, are you culpable and I could go on and on with examples, but I am sure you get the point by now.

As for a "heart desire", you still need a correct heart desire right?
I would not like to be in the shoes of the person who just desires Christ, and yet doesn't really know who Christ is or why they need Him.
Just because someone desires something, doesn't mean that their desire is valid or correct itself.

It's like talking to someone through the Internet (i.e., the show Catfish).
People think they know the other person they're talking to, and they even might have all these feelings. Their heart desires them so much!
And then, face-to-face they realise it wasn't the person they had thought. Their bubble is burst. They feel betrayed. And stand alone.

It is possible some might desire "Christ," until they realise who he is actually is.
When they see that Christ is really God Almightly, Jehovah, the Creator of everything who knows... absolute fear and horror may set in.
Likewise it is possible some don't want Christ, until they realise who He is. And then again, absolute fear and horror sets in knowing they rejected and even scoffed.

What is important foundational to our being saved, isn't our belief or heart response.
Rather it is that Christ is standing beside us on Judgement Day rather than leaving us alone.
How do we hope to get Christ on our side? Well it requires a correct belief of some sort to accompany heart's desire.
At least I'd think it does. Otherwise a person could just be catfishing themselves with Christ.

What that correctness of belief entails which accompanies our heart's desire, well I'll throw up for discussion.

We can be corrected and that is the point, you can desire Christ and have a heart for God and not have a intellectual understanding of Jesus, having a heart for God and desiring Christ means that if you got to heaven and found out you were wrong you would say sorry and accept the truth.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Ok cool I see what you are saying and it makes sense. But say you are intellectually disabled and you can't form a belief about Christ are you culpable, say you were raised Muslim and indoctrinated to believe that Christianity was Polytheism, are you culpable, what if you had a car accident and had a brain injury and you lost your faith because you brain was altered, are you culpable and I could go on and on with examples, but I am sure you get the point by now.

I pray that the maximal amount of people do come to Christ.
Your argument seems to be one of "fairness", right?

But, everyone is culpable regardless of whether they have an opportunity.
If Christ had not come at all, then everyone would receive condemnation.
The fact the Christ did come doesn't mean that we no longer deserve condemnation.

It's not a matter of forming belief about Christ, but rather a matter of none of us deserving to be with God.
So because some stumble across Christ in life and drink the cure, that is somehow unfair to others?
Perhaps. It does seem unfair. If it is unfair then it is necessarily unfair.

By analogy consider those who who died from ebola.
We now have a cure, or a vaccine, and it is showing very positive results.
Is it unfair that those who died missed out on this vaccine?
Well, yes. But what can be done? That is the reality of the matter.
This is what I mean by "necessarily unfair".

Just because some get to accept Christ, and others don't...
such is certainly "necessarily unfair" and my heart goes out to such.
If that is just the reality of how it works then what more can be said?

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Ok cool I see what you are saying and it makes sense. But say you are intellectually disabled and you can't form a belief about Christ are you culpable, say you were raised Muslim and indoctrinated to believe that Christianity was Polytheism, are you culpable, what if you had a car accident and had a brain injury and you lost your faith because you brain was altered, are you culpable and I could go on and on with examples, but I am sure you get the point by now.

I pray that the maximal amount of people do come to Christ.
Your argument seems to be one of "fairness", right?

But, everyone is culpable regardless of whether they have an opportunity.
If Christ had not come at all, then everyone would receive condemnation.
The fact the Christ did come doesn't mean that we no longer deserve condemnation.

It's not a matter of forming belief about Christ, but rather a matter of none of us deserving to be with God.
So because some stumble across Christ in life and drink the cure, that is somehow unfair to others?
Perhaps. It does seem unfair. If it is unfair then it is necessarily unfair.

By analogy consider those who who died from ebola.
We now have a cure, or a vaccine, and it is showing very positive results.
Is it unfair that those who died missed out on this vaccine?
Well, yes. But what can be done? That is the reality of the matter.
This is what I mean by "necessarily unfair".

Just because some get to accept Christ, and others don't...
such is certainly "necessarily unfair" and my heart goes out to such.
If that is just the reality of how it works then what more can be said?

That's why I believe it is more about a heart attitude than knowledge. But I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I pray you're right and that's all accepting Christ amounts to.
Which as I understand, is some heart-felt response however basic.
I couldn't in good conscience tell others that.

Kurieuo wrote:I pray you're right and that's all accepting Christ amounts to.
Which as I understand, is some heart-felt response however basic.
I couldn't in good conscience tell others that.

Maybe the lines are blurred, and it is a case by case basis. But you are right, if I was speaking to a non believer I would say that they need to accept Christ as Lord and Saviour. This is just how I reconcile the dissonance within my brain. I think at the end of the day we cannot determine the fate of anyone, we can only have hope that God is perfectly merciful, just, wrathful, loving, understanding and only he can make a perfect decision in regards to our fate.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I pray you're right and that's all accepting Christ amounts to.
Which as I understand, is some heart-felt response however basic.
I couldn't in good conscience tell others that.

Maybe the lines are blurred, and it is a case by case basis. But you are right, if I was speaking to a non believer I would say that they need to accept Christ as Lord and Saviour. This is just how I reconcile the dissonance within my brain. I think at the end of the day we cannot determine the fate of anyone, we can only have hope that God is perfectly merciful, just, wrathful, loving, understanding and only he can make a perfect decision in regards to our fate.

Yes, I think we need to treat this in two ways: theological and in practice ??

While I know God is merciful, loving, just, righteous, etc -- I'm not going to risk jeopardize someone else with political correctness.
Certainly, I don't think it is always clear (for example, with children, those before Christ, or someone who has never heard of Christ who could positively respond to God's general revelation), but...
Scripture is otherwise quite clear about placing our hope in Christ, which really is quite simple and people like is can over theologise for interests sake.

That said, I think Koukl once said, I'd prefer to be mean and be wrong, then be nice by watering things down and be wrong.
So in practical terms correct heart response towards Christ (essentially belief+heart -- can't really go wrong "accept Christ as Lord and Savior"). Anything less seems too risky.

I found this quote from Paul from another thread (hope you don't mind Paul) this is what I feel about the heart condition

PaulSacramento wrote:Hell is populated by people that would rather be THERE than to worship God.
It isn't about even believing in God since the devil and his angels believe also.
It is about choosing to NOT worship God, they choose to reject God.

So lets say a Muslim dies being a Muslim and never understood the sacrifice that Christ made for him and when faced with the truth, he fell to his knees and repented and asked Jesus to speak on his behalf, I think God is merciful and compassionate and would wrap him up in his loving embrace.

That's how I feel about it, Yes Jesus is the ONLY way, but how that happens is open to possibilities, I believe anyway.

The link below is a little long, but I think it makes some good points pertaining to this discussion.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... an-books-1