Evidence for God from Science

re: "should we force women to carry babies from rape?"

I don't see it as forcing a woman to carry a baby from rape... I think we need to help women to come to terms with the fact that they are a mother now, and yes, baby was conceived by a traumatic event, but baby is an innocent. And, though you may fear raising your child - 1) you really don't have to if you can't cope, and 2) you will most likely not hate your child but adore them, and your love for your child can help heal the trauma.

One can be quick to assume that abortion is likely the best choice (or a valid choice) for a woman facing pregnancy from rape. But women who either chose not to abort or weren't allowed to abort for some reason (e.g. fetus too old to legally kill) most often do not regret having their child.

And what's not discussed often enough is the regret from abortion... when women realise that they have killed an innocent life, their own defenseless child, they can feel such a huge amount of grief, so hurtful in can make them want to end their own lives.

A book I love to recommend is: "Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting from Sexual Assault". A summary of the book from Amazon:

Drawn from a survey of nearly 200 women who have experienced rape or incest pregnancies, Victims and Victors reveals a seldom-heard truth: that most women who become pregnant through sexual assault do not want abortions!

Victims and Victors leaps past the rhetoric that typically dominates the abortion issue to give women a chance to tell their stories. These are the real "experts" on this complex issue: the women who have been there. Just listen to what they have to say:

"After my daughter was born, it was love at first sight . . . I know I made the right decision in having her." —Nancy "Cole"

"Often I cry. Cry because I could not stop the attacks. Cry because my daughter is dead. And I cry because it still hurts." —Edith Young

"I think that rape victims with pregnancies are discriminated against because people seem to think you're nuts to have a baby by a man who raped you. We are looked upon as being liars, or stupid." —Sharon "Bailey"

"They say abortion is the easy way out, the best thing for everyone, but they are wrong. It has been over 15 years, and I still suffer." —"Rebecca Morris"

"I thank God for the strength He gave me to go through the bad times and for all of the joy in the good times. I will never regret that I chose to give life to my daughter." —Mary Murray

"Abortion does not help or solve a problem—it only compounds and creates another trauma for the already grieving victim by taking away the one thing that can bring joy." —Helene Evans

"The effects of the abortion are much more far-reaching than the effects of the rape in my life." —"Patricia Ryan"

"I, having lived through rape, and having raised a child ‘conceived in rape,' feel personally assaulted and insulted every time I hear that abortion should be legal for rape and incest. I feel that we're being used to further the abortion issue, even though we've not been asked to tell our side of the story." —Kathleen DeZeeuw

In Victims and Victors, 20 women like the ones quoted above share what it is like to face a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. They speak bravely and candidly of the pain of sexual assault, of the sadness and trauma of abortion, and of the joy and healing of giving birth.

Victims and Victors answers these important questions—questions every pro-lifer should be asking:

• What do women really need when facing a pregnancy resulting from sexual assault, and how can we best meet those needs?
• How can pro-lifers hold on to their principles while providing compassionate and understanding support for pregnant sexual assault victims at the same time?
• How can legislators best convey a pro-woman, pro-life philosophy when faced with questions regarding sexual assault and abortion?
• Why are rape and incest pregnancies the "cornerstone" for abortion on demand, and what can pro-lifers do to counteract this?
• How can women who have experienced sexual assault pregnancies share the truth about their experiences in a way that will truly make a difference?

You will find the answers to these questions in Victims and Victors. It lays out a clear argument against abortion in cases of sexual assault and gives pro-lifers the tools they need to combat the argument that abortion is helpful—or even necessary—for women facing a sexual assault pregnancy.

(available for purchase from theunchoice.com)

One of my favourite real life examples of a mother from rape is Jaycee Lee Dugard - who was kidnapped at 11yo and kept prisoner for 18 years. She was raped and had two children to her abductor and is quoted saying:

"I would do it all again. The most precious thing in the world came out of it... my daughters."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -yard.html

Another example is Amanda Berry, who was kidnapped and abused and raped for 10 years. She had a daughter to her abductor and this article mentions how her love for her daughter is what gave her hope and reason to try to escape:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ghter.html
Amanda still has and loves her daughter today, no matter who her father was.

Michelle Knight, another victim of Ariel, talked on Dr Phil of falling pregnant 5 times to him, but he beat her and caused her to miscarry. She grieved her children that he took from her:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/michelle-kn ... hated-one/

Read some more stories here:
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/testimonies/
(e.g. tick the box "Rape and abortion" to read stories of regret from those who aborted their children from rape)

If you are sincere about this question, about carrying babies conceived in rape to term, then you really need to read the book above and read any stories online of women who kept their baby and those who chose to abort. It's not enough for us to discuss the merit of the idea... we need to hear from the real women who experienced this.

And yes, there will be women who say - "I had my abortion, I don't regret it, in fact it was the best decision I made in my life" but I personally believe these women to caught up in the lie of abortion, that they have simply terminated the pregnancy process, didn't kill a "person", so have not come to terms with the fact that they killed a very real child, not the idea or potential child, but an actual one.

And as Christians, we have to be against killing the preborn babies, because God clearly told us it is murder.

Here is a very good sermon on this commandment with great scripture references: http://markdriscoll.org/media/ten-comma ... not-murder

Can murderers be forgiven through Christ? of course, but lets not pretend that no one is being killed.

Mrs.K ... thank you thank you thank you... so wonderfully stated and heartfelt a reply there never was.

From the depths of my heart thank you, God Bless you, and He has, for no one can feel this empathy for the unborn without the assistance of God.

Truly He is with you

Mrs K,

I have always been of the opinion that abortion is a choice only the mother can ultimately make. There is a part of me that still believes that but your posts have given me pause for thought.

I only ever saw the pain involved, I didnt see the possibility of life and love winning over.

Thank you for making me think in a new way.

Great post Mrs K.

This is a very emotional issue, that contains some 'grey' areas. I am anti abortion but any women who is placed in such a precarious postion should not be judged. Their are two innocents in this equation the women and the unborn child.

Whilst everything should be done to support and offer these women every viable alternative to termination in a loving, respectful enviroment, ultimately the decision must be the women's choice.
She has already been striped of choice when she was violated, adding to that a 'forced' pregnancy is not the best solution. If she decides to terminate I personally would not further add to the shame that already comes with rape. I would do everything I could to discourage abortion, but ultimately I would support her regardless even if it goes against what I believe to be the best solution; progressing with the pregnancy with the option of adoption.

Where some grey areas come in is incest. This is two fold. The potential very young age of the victim, a child herself, and the very real possibility of deformation.

Another area of 'grey' for me is the morning after pill. Being most effective in the first 72 hours. Before a pregnancy can be detected. On principle it is no different to abortion. That is the premise of the anti abortion stance, a foetus or embryo is a 'child' even in the first three months of life. Rendering the morning after pill IF a women/girl happens to pregnant under the same banner of abortion.
If my girl was raped at 13, I would take her immediately to get the 'morning after pill'. That would be me protecting my child. Before I knew if she had fallen pregnant or not, I would NOT wait around to find out. If that meant that she happened to be pregnant with a developing embryo within the first few hours then so be it.

How many victims are too many?
Any at all!

Hi Mel,

I'm sure Mrs K when she's awake would love to respond to your sentiments that many would no doubt share.

There are some important things you raised that I think require some unpacking, regardless of where one falls on the issue.

For example, "emergency contraception" is not really contraception as you seem aware to.
The morning after pill is an abortive. In fact, Christians need to be aware, that many so-called "contraceptives" (which prevent conception) are actually abortives. For example, many IUDs which will prevent attachment to the uterine wall after conception. Some are marketed as being better than others for their "emergency contraceptive" (abortive) benefits.

Many pills also have a two-fold effect, being both contraceptives and abortives. If they fail to stop new human life from being conceived, then they also thin the uterine lining so that implantation does not occur (which only happens after conception).

Is this important? I think so. Understanding true contraceptives that prevent human life from forming, versus abortives that lead to human life being destroyed -- is a serious matter of life and death.

"Oh, but its so small and insignificant, just a few cells. Such can hardly be called human life," we might well think. BUT, this is just biology 101. Human life, no matter how insignificant it might seem to us, happens at conception. That is when life is conceived. So regardless of whether the pregnancy can be detected, if human life is conceived it is conceived.

Now mix this with the belief the human life has intrinsic value.
Christians believe this because of God who imparts the imago dei into all of us. (Gen 9:6) All humans possess this. It is the reason human life is valuable and we ought not kill one another. BUT, even non-Christians recognise human life as being intrinsically valuable for whatever their own reasons might be (e.g., the crowd at http://www.secularprolife.org/).

I'm confident, everyone who is killed, even if only conceived for 24 hours before being aborted, we will see them on judgement day. That goes for both Mrs K and I who may have been mislead by the evil in the world into using what we thought were contraceptives, but were really abortives. Oh, the evil that shrouds our world! And many are unaware.

So now with a basic biological understanding of what we're dealing with, let's focus in on the scenario of if your daughter was raped, forgetting for a moment that human life is precious, a blessing and to be protected.

Well, you're apparently "pro-choice" right? And yet, what you said was this:

Melanie wrote:If my girl was raped at 13, I would take her immediately to get the 'morning after pill'. That would be me protecting my child. Before I knew if she had fallen pregnant or not, I would NOT wait around to find out. If that meant that she happened to be pregnant with a developing embryo within the first few hours then so be it.

You would immediately take her to get the morning after pill? Well, I ask, where is your daughter's own choice in the matter? Would you explain to her some biology 101 and what the morning after pill does (since you do seem to understand it is an abortive)? What would you do if she didn't want one? I pray you wouldn't stare at her like she's too young to know any better.

AND, you would NOT wait around to find out what exactly? Whether she had a valuable human life growing inside her, or an evil seed? I say you're looking at the matter all wrong. Life is a blessing and the reality of many women show so much healing is had with raped victims through brings life into the world than aborting it.

Many raped talk of feeling that they don't have a choice. The most common reason raped women cite for having an abortion is social pressure. Their family, their friends and doctor just assumed abortion and book them in. It wasn't even a thought a raped woman might want to keep their "evil baby". They're made to feel dirty and shameful that they actually wish to keep the life inside them although they were raped.

I'm sure Mrs K can share many stories. She has a heart to help women, but the automatic and wrong reaction cultivated in our society is like yours. IT'S HORRIBLE! AN ABOMINATION. DON'T WAIT TO FIND OUT. GET RID OF IT! There is often so much healing when women see their baby, and such good from bad. Life is a gift and blessing. There are many more happy stories of life, than there are of women who were scared into an abortion. Not to mention, if one is Christian, then it is a very weighty sin to kill innocent human life.

So, then, I don't know where that leaves you. But, the gravity of choices are clearly on the table. If you see pro-choice as your true position, then I'd hope you would explain to your daughter to facts of biology, mention the value of all human life, even let her read up a real stories of women who have been raped on both sides -- those who kept their baby versus those who did not. So that your daughter is fully informed. Rather than just rush her to have a precautionary abortion.

Kurieuo wrote:Hi Mel,

I'm sure Mrs K when she's awake would love to respond to your sentiments that many would no doubt share.

There are some important things you raised that I think require some unpacking, regardless of where one falls on the issue.

For example, "emergency contraception" is not really contraception as you seem aware to.
The morning after pill is an abortive. In fact, Christians need to be aware, that many so-called "contraceptives" (which prevent conception) are actually abortives. For example, many IUDs which will prevent attachment to the uterine wall after conception. Some are marketed as being better than others for their "emergency contraceptive" (abortive) benefits.

Many pills also have a two-fold effect, being both contraceptives and abortives. If they fail to stop new human life from being conceived, then they also thin the uterine lining so that implantation does not occur (which only happens after conception).

Is this important? I think so. Understanding true contraceptives that prevent human life from forming, versus abortives that lead to human life being destroyed -- is a serious matter of life and death.

"Oh, but its so small and insignificant, just a few cells. Such can hardly be called human life," we might well think. BUT, this is just biology 101. Human life, no matter how insignificant it might seem to us, happens at conception. That is when life is conceived. So regardless of whether the pregnancy can be detected, if human life is conceived it is conceived.

Now mix this with the belief the human life has intrinsic value.
Christians believe this because of God who imparts the imago dei into all of us. (Gen 9:6) All humans possess this. It is the reason human life is valuable and we ought not kill one another. BUT, even non-Christians recognise human life as being intrinsically valuable for whatever their own reasons might be (e.g., the crowd at http://www.secularprolife.org/).

I'm confident, everyone who is killed, even if only conceived for 24 hours before being aborted, we will see them on judgement day. That goes for both Mrs K and I who may have been mislead by the evil in the world into using what we thought were contraceptives, but were really abortives. Oh, the evil that shrouds our world! And many are unaware.

So now with a basic biological understanding of what we're dealing with, let's focus in on the scenario of if your daughter was raped, forgetting for a moment that human life is precious, a blessing and to be protected.

Well, you're apparently "pro-choice" right? And yet, what you said was this:

Melanie wrote:If my girl was raped at 13, I would take her immediately to get the 'morning after pill'. That would be me protecting my child. Before I knew if she had fallen pregnant or not, I would NOT wait around to find out. If that meant that she happened to be pregnant with a developing embryo within the first few hours then so be it.

You would immediately take her to get the morning after pill? Well, I ask, where is your daughter's own choice in the matter? Would you explain to her some biology 101 and what the morning after pill does (since you do seem to understand it is an abortive)? What would you do if she didn't want one? I pray you wouldn't stare at her like she's too young to know any better.

AND, you would NOT wait around to find out what exactly? Whether she had a valuable human life growing inside her, or an evil seed? I say you're looking at the matter all wrong. Life is a blessing and the reality of many women show so much healing is had with raped victims through brings life into the world than aborting it.

Many raped talk of feeling that they don't have a choice. The most common reason raped women cite for having an abortion is social pressure. Their family, their friends and doctor just assumed abortion and book them in. It wasn't even a thought a raped woman might want to keep their "evil baby". They're made to feel dirty and shameful that they actually wish to keep the life inside them although they were raped.

I'm sure Mrs K can share many stories. She has a heart to help women, but the automatic and wrong reaction cultivated in our society is like yours. IT'S HORRIBLE! AN ABOMINATION. DON'T WAIT TO FIND OUT. GET RID OF IT! There is often so much healing when women see their baby, and such good from bad. Life is a gift and blessing. There are many more happy stories of life, than there are of women who were scared into an abortion. Not to mention, if one is Christian, then it is a very weighty sin to kill innocent human life.

So, then, I don't know where that leaves you. But, the gravity of choices are clearly on the table. If you see pro-choice as your true position, then I'd hope you would explain to your daughter to facts of biology, mention the value of all human life, even let her read up a real stories of women who have been raped on both sides -- those who kept their baby versus those who did not. So that your daughter is fully informed. Rather than just rush her to have a precautionary abortion.

I would not be looking at this under the same umbrella. The question of whether the morning after pill should be an option and an option I would use if it was my daughter really doesn't have anything at all to do with using over emotional language that detracts from the bigger picture. It's horrible, an abomination, an evil seed, evil baby; is anybody really saying that? I'm not. I honestly think this very difficult issue should be discussed without using such assumptions, it might make for a better sounding argument but it really does not have anything to do with the issue. Which is a very young girl/child or women who is raped having the option of the morning after pill.
The issue here is CHOICE. It doesn't matter what I would personally do in regards to my child. What matters is that we would be even able to have the discussion in the first place. Would she want to have the child? Maybe but I doubt it, but there lies the CHOICE!
I find it ironic that you jump on the assumption that I would 'force' my child, taking away her CHOICE in the matter when that is exactly what you would argue for, NO CHOICE.
Again when you pointed out the pressure on these women to have abortions, that everyone around them would just assume the abortion and book them in, think them 'wrong' for wanting the 'evil baby'.
How horrible for these women, people presuming on their account, taking away their CHOICES.
Doesn't matter which side of the coin, forcing' a women to do anything when she has already been forced to have sex, a violation more damaging and destroying than anyone could ever imagine is not okay. It's not okay for those that would pressure her to have an abortion making her feel shameful for wanting the child and it's not okay for those that would want to take away the option of even the morning after pill, placing shame and Judgment for termination of a potential pregnancy.
The blame shame game should not be a tactic used by either side.
This is not a one shoe fits all situation.
These women should have the option at the very least the morning after pill.

On a side note.
I can classify my own position

Pregnancy resulting from rape is extremely rare, less than 1%. The other 99% have consented to sexual intercourse, knowing the potential result. I do not agree with abortions in these cases.

I believe women who have been raped should have the choice of the morning after pill in the first 72 hours.

I am anti abortion, pro choice in only 1% of rape cases, then I advocate the morning after pill as an option.

melanie wrote:On a side note.
I can classify my own position

Pregnancy resulting from rape is extremely rare, less than 1%. The other 99% have consented to sexual intercourse, knowing the potential result. I do not agree with abortions in these cases.

I believe women who have been raped should have the choice of the morning after pill in the first 72 hours.

I am anti abortion, pro choice in only 1% of rape cases, then I advocate the morning after pill as an option.

Mel,

Forgive my bluntness, but in the instances that you believe abortion is wrong(the 99%), why is it wrong?

Hi Melanie,

Obviously this is a sensitive topic and I don't want to be be drawn into an emotional exchange.

I've laid out the biological facts regarding the conception of life, and what has become normalised in our society as "contraceptives" actually being "abortives".

What people do with that information is on their own conscience since such practices are legal and even promoted in our society.

Reading your latest post, there are limits to "choice" though aren't there?
As you identified, that you would not support abortion of impregnation (once the human embryo attaches to the uterine wall).
But then, why not pro-choice at 6 weeks before a heart beat. The question I ask is what is the defining factor for you when choice is no longer choice?

A second question I would ask is why would you think your daughter may not want to keep her child (i.e., you doubt it).
Why not when she knows that such is human life. What is it that you are trying to protect her from or prevent from happening?

Hopefully you don't see me as the enemy here.
I'm just outlining things as clearly as possible while asking some pointed questions.

Since you shared your own beliefs, I will clarify my own position also.

I believe in the intrinsic value of all human life and that choice should not be at the expense of another's life.

I feel sad that people would choose to extinguish any innocent human life at any stage rather than cherish such as a previous gift. (Psalm 127:3; Psalm 139:13)
With women who are raped, having something good can and does provide much healing. I believe this is in large part because giving life is a gift.
Picture the unconditional love your own babies and daughter gave you? Having someone so reliant on you. Gave your life meaning and purpose, right?
Get a hold of that book my wife (Mrs K) mentioned and just read some stories.

Equally I know the fog is often thick in the world.
So I withhold judgement knowing that all will be judged by the light of Christ in the end, myself included.

Mel,

Mel wrote:The issue here is CHOICE...

The problem with the CHOICE you are advocating, is that that CHOICE kills someone.
If it didn't, abortion would be a complete non-issue.
Like removing a wisdom tooth - there would be no need to legislate for/against it.

We don't give mothers the CHOICE to kill their newborns (yet) so why give them the CHOICE to kill their preborns?

And why is the CHOICE to kill the preborn with morning after pill OK in your opinion in cases of rape, but not when they were conceived by consensual sexual intercourse? Why do the latter children get special treatment/special protection? How are they different?

What are you trying to save the women / your daughter from by allowing them to kill their preborn child?

In your daughters hypothetical case (and life of your grandchild) - why don't you trust God here?

Regarding victims of incest (mothers and children) I think these stories can help you see that these children have value:

Kristi Hofferber, born from incest - the rape of her mother by her father/grandfather, all her older siblings were aborted, she was the only survivor
I completely disagree that in cases of incest, abortion should be legalized. It makes no different who the father is - God ordained that life, and there should be no reason to terminate that pregnancy.

The following is a small collection of quotes from the Victims and Victors book I mentioned above relating to incest:

"Denise" became pregnant at 15yo to her father who forced her to have an abortion at 19 weeks- she was strapped down and drugged

I grieve every day for my daughter. I have struggled to forget the abuse and the abortion. I can do neither. All I think of is "I should have done more, fought more, struggled more for the life of my child.

... The trauma of the rape and abuse were only intensified by the abortion. The guilt of knowing my baby is dead is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life.

Edith Young, impregnated by her stepfather at 12, her parents procured an abortion for her at 3-4 months without tell her what was to happen, she was given pills and then birthed her fully formed dead baby into a basin at home
... When reported in the media, rape.incest is usually called by the watered-down term of child molestation or sexual abuse. By any name, it's still a tragedy. Abortion, though legal, is also a tragedy. Both take away from the victim things that cannot be replaced.

... the abortion which was to be "in my best interest" just has not been. As far as I can tell, it only "saved their reputations" [her parents], "solved their problems" and alloed their lives to go on merrily.
My daughter, how I misse her so. I miss her regardless of the reason for her conception. You see, she was a part of me, an innocent human being, sentence to death because of the selfish sexual gratification of another and the need to "save reputations". She was a unique individual whose life was exterminated.

"Carla Harris", abused by her stepfather since 13, when she became pregnant at 15yo he told her abortion was her only option, and she complied
I am pretty much over the effects of the molestation, but I still have to face a lot of effects from the abortion. The memories of the abortion itself are horrible, but even more painful is the fact that I killed a child. I wonder if it was a boy or a girl, what colour hair it had, and all the other things a parent sees.

Nancy "Cole", molested by her father as a teenager, became pregnant and kept her baby
After my daughter was born, it was love at first sight. She gave me a rason to live and a sense of purpose. But I suffered for the effects of the abuse for many years until I became a Christian five years ago.

The Lord healed me of many years of deep depression. I know I made the right decision in having her. I believe emphatically that abortion is murder and should never be an option...

... my daughter is now 18, loves the Lord, and is happy and well adjusted. I have raise her all her life and I know I made he right decision."

"Linda March", impregnated by her step-father and kept her baby
I was 14 when I became pregnant. Abortion was not legal in 1968, but had abortion been an option at the time, my son would, in all probability, would not be here with me today. And I would have missed out on one of the few joys in my life. As it was, when I discovered I was pregnant with my son, I despised the tine life which was growing in my womb, and tried to abort him. But God knew best, and allowed him to live.

"Sarah Judge" - child from incest
Abortion is wrong. God planned for us to be here, and may use us for His glory through our situation

"John Kent" - child from incest
I am the product of rape, and not only rape, but incest. My mother sacrificed her needs for mine, carried a shame that wasn't here, and brought a baby into this world that in this day and age probably would not have made it.
But she didn't stop there. Being unable to provide me with the things a child needs.... she selflessly let me go for adoption when I was seven.
... Ten to eleven years later, Jesus brought m mom and I back together for our mutual healing. He healed us both...

No