Evidence for God from Science

In regards to the passage mentioned on that site, I would certainly agree that it shows evidence that that specific quote may not have been spoken in Greek. But even so, do we have any early manuscripts of NT books in Hebrew? That predate the Koine Greek? Are we to translate it from Greek back to Hebrew and then say that this was the original text? I think not. Not until we find many Hebrew/Aramaic NT manuscripts that predate the Greek.
Here is a counter article from a Hebrew Christian site as well: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articl ... ek_nt.html

I'm afraid there isn't enough for me to hold to my view here, I'm going to have to abandon it. I have a feeling about it, but until we find something more concrete, I'll have to let it go. So, lets look at the Greek instead!

What if the "restrainer" mentioned isn't actually the Holy Spirit?
There is good evidence to suggest that the "restrainer" mentioned is actually Michael the Archangel:

I saw the mini video you posted. I'm not convinced but open to further exploration. Michael is Israels protector, not the worlds, though.
I also see it being more reasonable that the Holy Spirit (and the church by the Holy Spirit) is what is restraining evil in this world today.
I'll have to gather scriptures to rebuke this if I can. It'll be one of the topics I address tonight..

believe the post-trib, pre-wrath view suggests that the rapture occurs imminently at some point within the latter 3 1/2 years

So in between the peace pact and the desolation of the Temple?

I think the Antichrist will actually claim to be the Jewish Messiah and will make the claim partly based on his Jewish heritage

I'm thinking in order for him to convince all religions, he will be the Jewish Messiah and the Islamic messiah. I believe the Jewish messiah has to be born of a Jewish woman and the Islamic messiah of a Islamic man.

Just curious, is there a specific reason you're using shatan, the Islamic term for satan?

No specific reason, I switch terms for.. well I don't know why, I just do. I am liking using the Aramaic/Hebrew language for names, however. That could be a reason why.

Rob wrote:
As an aside, I don't believe the Antichrist will come from Islam, but I suppose the possibility exists.
I think the Antichrist will actually claim to be the Jewish Messiah and will make the claim partly based on his Jewish heritage. Remember, antichrist doesn't mean "against" Christ, it more properly means "instead of" Christ or a "substitute" for Christ.

Interesting,I have heard this view before could you elaborate more about why you see it that way?I'm wondering how a Jewish temple could be built right off the bat,as it seems every Muslim would go to war to prevent it.Could it somehow be they will be weakened somehow though which would then make it possible?

Mallz wrote: So in between the peace pact and the desolation of the Temple?

I think that would put it some point after the stopping of the sacrifices midweek, right?

Is the peace pact you're referring to from Daniel 9:27?

I assume it is, so let's go with that.

Before I continue, I must say that most of these ideas I've got from Chris White's book False Christ. I would recommend you read both False Christ and Mystery Babylon, actually. They were written with a very consistent hermeneutic.

Daniel 9:27

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

It's sort of taken for granted that the covenant is a peace treaty, but that is not necessarily so.

Jeremiah 31:31

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah."

The Jews currently believe (despite the next verse that states it will not be like the covenant with their ancestors out of Egypt) that when the messiah comes, he will reconfirm the covenant they already had and once again begin the daily sacrifices in the temple. And that's exactly what Daniel states by use of the word confirm. He's not creating an entirely new covenant, but confirming an old one.

In the ESV Daniel 9:27, the antichrist seems to make an entirely new strong covenant, but many other versions including the KJV and YLT say that He strengthens an existing covenant, the KJV even stating that He confirms THE covenant, which implies the Mosaic law.

Reconfirming the covenant and especially beginning the temple sacrifices once again seems to be correct because we see in the very next verse of Daniel that he brings an end to the sacrifices and offerings in the middle of the seven years. Notice that the text doesn't say that the antichrist announces the covenant will only be for 7 years, only that it will last 7 years, with him ending the sacrifices and offerings at the midpoint. He would likely announce the covenant as being eternal.

abelcainsbrother wrote: Interesting,I have heard this view before could you elaborate more about why you see it that way?I'm wondering how a Jewish temple could be built right off the bat,as it seems every Muslim would go to war to prevent it.Could it somehow be they will be weakened somehow though which would then make it possible?

Bear in mind that the third temple doesn't need to be finished before sacrifices can take place. It could be a temporary tent temple like the Tabernacle of Moses.

I just joined this site so I might place a few nuggets of thought here for you. First, curiosity has caught me so this is asked: why do people who believe in a pre or mid rapture consistently overlook what Jesus says about the end? Such as two women will be doing something beside each other and one will be taken. Where do those taken go? They go to a place where they become carcasses; where the birds that eat dead things are flying around. Another is when he speaks the parable about the tares and wheat. The farmer tells the worker to let them grow together until harvest time. Then he says to gather the tares in bundles and burn them THEN gather the wheat into his barn. This Thesselonian scipture is not even crystal clear. It is interpretive whereas what our Lord spoke is soabundantly clear. This troubles me because if so many believe that they will be taken before all the stress and turmoil and then are mistaken they will not be properly prepared and have a great chance of falling away.
Secondly, a thought was mentioned about the Holy Spirit or Archangel Michael being the restrainer. A thought here is in support of the Holy Spirit because of the amount of power required to restrain Satan and his fallen angels. Also He may be restraining them only until the Two Witnesses have been completely trained. The Holy Spirit will remain with the righteous even to the end.
It just seems to me that a falling away is not happening without lukewarm believers to fall away. Think of going through any part of the tribulation (if you live to the end you are blessed yay as a test of our faith in the Father and our Saviour. God is wonderful at protecting those who love Him and have trust and faith in Him. Be afraid of not being with Him.
One more thought... when the Two Witnesses ascend their enemies look upon them and if what Jesus said is true (which it always is) then believers will still be there until the harvest.

One more thing I forgot to mention.....it is possible that the Antichrist will be Jewish because they are looking for a Messiah and the false prophet will be born of Islam and the two join up and work together with the Temple. Thus fitting rightly for Christians and oppositely for Islam. Only Islam will believe the Antichist is Jesus and the false prophet is the maddi or whatever he's called. It's interesting because they believe in two bad ones that could end up actually being the Two Witnesses. I am willing to bet that the wicked ones will be attractive and the Two Witnesses will have physical issues. Islam believes the bad ones have 1. Something wrong with the right eye on one and 2. Something wrong with the foot of another....perhaps a limp. So the Jewish and Islam origins is not a bad theory. It's very possible. I could see the pope going along with them just because he is doing everything to promote man made peace. I think he is a good distraction and nothing more.

firework wrote:I just joined this site so I might place a few nuggets of thought here for you. First, curiosity has caught me so this is asked: why do people who believe in a pre or mid rapture consistently overlook what Jesus says about the end? Such as two women will be doing something beside each other and one will be taken. Where do those taken go? They go to a place where they become carcasses; where the birds that eat dead things are flying around. Another is when he speaks the parable about the tares and wheat. The farmer tells the worker to let them grow together until harvest time. Then he says to gather the tares in bundles and burn them THEN gather the wheat into his barn. This Thesselonian scipture is not even crystal clear. It is interpretive whereas what our Lord spoke is soabundantly clear. This troubles me because if so many believe that they will be taken before all the stress and turmoil and then are mistaken they will not be properly prepared and have a great chance of falling away.
Secondly, a thought was mentioned about the Holy Spirit or Archangel Michael being the restrainer. A thought here is in support of the Holy Spirit because of the amount of power required to restrain Satan and his fallen angels. Also He may be restraining them only until the Two Witnesses have been completely trained. The Holy Spirit will remain with the righteous even to the end.
It just seems to me that a falling away is not happening without lukewarm believers to fall away. Think of going through any part of the tribulation (if you live to the end you are blessed yay as a test of our faith in the Father and our Saviour. God is wonderful at protecting those who love Him and have trust and faith in Him. Be afraid of not being with Him.
One more thought... when the Two Witnesses ascend their enemies look upon them and if what Jesus said is true (which it always is) then believers will still be there until the harvest.

First off you make good points if you reject the idea of a Rapture however if I say that not everybody who claims tobe a Christian will be raptured it changes I believe what most everything you have said.

Also I do not buy it that those who believe in a Rapture would fall away if they were somehow here when the anti-christ is here and the markof the beast.I think this is a weak argument against the Rapture because I believe people who believe in a rapture would not take the mark of the beast.Also there are people who become believers in Jesus during the tribulation because of the two witnesses.I believe one teaches the jews how to rebuild the temple and one teaches to gentiles.So that there are wheat and tares in the tribulation and when Jesus returns yet the Rapture has already happened.Read Matthew 25.

Those who doubt a Rapture need to explain 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 because the words "caught up" and rapture mean the same thing.There is no difference in saying Raptured or caught up,both could be used here in this verse.

firework wrote:One more thing I forgot to mention.....it is possible that the Antichrist will be Jewish because they are looking for a Messiah and the false prophet will be born of Islam and the two join up and work together with the Temple. Thus fitting rightly for Christians and oppositely for Islam. Only Islam will believe the Antichist is Jesus and the false prophet is the maddi or whatever he's called. It's interesting because they believe in two bad ones that could end up actually being the Two Witnesses. I am willing to bet that the wicked ones will be attractive and the Two Witnesses will have physical issues. Islam believes the bad ones have 1. Something wrong with the right eye on one and 2. Something wrong with the foot of another....perhaps a limp. So the Jewish and Islam origins is not a bad theory. It's very possible. I could see the pope going along with them just because he is doing everything to promote man made peace. I think he is a good distraction and nothing more.

The reason why I believe the anti-christ cannot be a jew is because no muslim would allow the jews to rebuild a temple on the temple mount right next to the muslim mosque but also the bible teaches the anti-christ comes from babylon,not Israel,at the very least the anti-christ is a gentile and not a jew.Thanks for your comments.The only way this could happen is if the Majde allowed the jews to rebuild their temple.

Let me explain why/how I believe the anti-christ comes from babylon based on the seven heads on the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17.

The first thing we need to do is figure out what the seven heads represent.Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was,IS NOT;and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,and go into perdition:and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder,whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,when they behold the beast that was,and is not,and yet is."

verse 9" And here is the mind which hath wisdom.The seven heads are seven mountains,on which the woman sitteth."

OK so the seven heads are seven mountains and these represent empires that have had dealings with the jews,we must remember that Israel and the jewish people are central tounderstanding bible prophecy.

OK so if the seven heads represent empires that have effected Israel and the jews then we read.

Verse 10 "And there are seven kings:FIVE are fallen,and one is,and when he cometh,he must continue a SHORT SPACE.
verse 11 "And the beast that WAS,and is not(go backup to verse 8 and read about WAS),even he is the eigth,and is of the seven(gentile),and goeth into perdition.

OK so let's bring the empires that had dealings with Israel an the jews into this and try to figure this out.In verse 10 it tells us there are SEVEN kings and FIVE are fallen,whichmeans empires that had fallen and were no longer around in John's day when he wrote this.OK these 5 fallen are Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medes and Persians and Greece.This is the 5 fallen.
OK but verse 10 also says five are fallen,and one is(this would be Rome in John's time).

OK let's go backupto verse 8 and focus on these phrases in it "The beast which thou sawest was,IS NOT,and shall ascnd out of the bottomless pit" and "whenthey behold the beast that was,IS not,and YET IS.
based on this we know it cannot be Rome because it says IS NOT,it was not around in John's time and yet Rome was.So wemust try to figure out wich of the seven empires the anti-christ comes or the phrase AND YET IS.This means it is going to come back in the last days,so let's look at the seven heads again

Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medes and Persians and Greece.OK which of these are still around today and were around in John's time Egypt? yes,Assyria- Syria? yes,Babylon? no,Medes and Persians? yes - Iran= Persia,greece?Yes So the only one that was not around in John's days is Babylon which is Iraq today,so the anti-christ comes from babylon,not Rome,Israel,etc but babylon which is Iraq today.

OK but something else not to overlook this phrase " the beast that thou sawest was,is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" This refers to a powerful demonic spirit that will possess the anti-christ,then we see the phrase " When they behold the beast that was,is not,AND YET IS> Babylon.

OK we are almost finished we need to try to figure out what "AND YET IS" refers to.OK in verse 10 we read And there are seven kings:five are fallen,and one is,and THE OTHER IS NOT YET COME;and when he comethMUST continue a short space. This will be the new world order,one world government coming in the future and it continues a short space,and is the 7th empire making up the seven heads on the scarlet colored beast.This is the one that must continue a short space.

verse 11 "And the beast that WAS,and is not,even he is the eighth,and is of the seven(gentile),and goeth into perdition.
So "and the other is not yet come and when he cometh must continue a short space " would be the 7th empire and it is the new world order/one world government coming,and it will continue a short space and is taken over and turned into the EIGHTH and final empire which will be the mark of the beast system that comes from Babylon.

First I appreciate your respect...thank you. I must say this: you cannot have a falling away without people falling away from something they once were at. Jesus mentions how many will say "did I not prophesy in your name and cast out demons?" Then He tells them "away with you who work iniquity". So...yes those who perform lip service but do not have their hearts set in the right place as well as those who waver in faith (you must choose one: God or the world). I absolutely do believe there are some claiming Chistianity than living worldly thus they would not be caught up with our Messiah. I also believe true believers will be caught up but only after the wicked have been destroyed (killed) by the wrath of God (true believers will be protected by God). The only pain true believers endure during the tribulation is what the wicked dish out unless God has chosen you to endure to the end then He will protect you. The martyrs give Glory to God as do those who make it completely through because He preserves them. It will all be according to His purpose.

I have one request of you, if you please, notify me of where in the Bible it says the Antichrist will come from Babylon. I am simply asking because I do not seem to be as strong in the Bible as yourself. Thank you in advance.

Please disregard my final comment. I did not notice the third comment you left. Thank you.

I greatly appreciate the time you took to share your theory. I shall have to think on what you've said. Thank you again.

firework wrote:I greatly appreciate the time you took to share your theory. I shall have to think on what you've said. Thank you again.

No problem.I still like to talk and discuss bible prophecy even if we disagree on certian things I still like to discuss it from different perspectives or maybe we'll agree.We don't discuss it much here so I was glad to see you respond and I hope we can learn more about it.I'm alittle rusty though and realized it when I was trying to explain why I say the anti-christ comes from babylon.But don't be afraid to respond if you want to discuss it further I find bible prophecy very interesting and it used to be a hobby of mine,it still is kinda but not like it used to be.

Meshach For you all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xH-jSiR-RHc

I looked more carefully through your theory and tend to like it very much. Perhaps the Antichrist has Jewish heritage that he uses to deceive the Jewish people. I do believe that the Antichrist poses as Jesus for both Jewish and Islamic because that is the only way to get the temple built peacefully due to both believing Messiah/Jesus will return.
I am also fascinated by Bible prophecy as well as the end times. I am rather wet behind the ears though having only read the Bible once which was within the past half year or so. I would be glad to discuss such subjects with you though. I enjoy fresh perspectives I do tend to research views that others have for a more diverse pool of thought to decipher.
While I'm at it...what are your thoughts on the two witnesses (there's a little bit of prophecy about them scattered throughout the Bible). I would enjoy hearing your ideas. Thank you in advance. Also if there is anything in particular you would like my view on then I shall also reply....if I have a view because some things I am very much unsure of. Peace be with you new friend <3.

Daniel 9:26 states that the antichrist will be from the same people that burnt the temple in 70ad. Many say this means he'll be Roman.

As far as how people look at prophecy in the Bible, they erroneously tend to look at it with a western, non-Jewish mindset. This guy explains it pretty well: