You tell me

[EssentialSacrifice]

The only way I see evolution existing is if the something that has intelligence triggers it,

There you go... The One who is looking in to your fishbowl is the One who does not live in our fishbowl (universe) who potentially got the whole show off the ground with 4 words ... "Let there be light" (Big Bang). Now, I'm not saying with any more predictive powers anyone else has that this is the absolute way it all got started, but if it is, and the very real possibility it did, proves, in fact, that evolution and the God of the universe not only exist in tandem but could not not exist together.

I know this may not be a particularity popular belief here, but it's not beyond the pale for possibility.

I do find it interesting you use the analogy and sign of fish and fishbowls in regards to Christian theology ... perhaps a precursor to over arching religious theme.

So the real question is who or what exactly transferred energy into these two giant objects in orbit to cause them even to cross paths to even create life.

It does seem you have at least approached the Answerer here. I'm somewhat confused that you arrive at a conclusion that you have, here, addressed.

and again ...

I surely hope the intelligent director who set this mass in motion does not also stop the mass because man didn't push a little deeper due to how stupid we really are thinking we can understand whats outside our fish bowl

It feels like on the one hand you want us to seek answers and then call us stupid for thinking we can understand what is outside the fishbowl. I'm sorry, it's just confusing and almost certainly my inability to perceive the angles of your point here.

and finally ...

If whatever started us isn't who we call God then it is surely something else, if I new how then I would shake a figurative hand of that being for giving me life.

Well, yeah, it must be something ... and believe me you've come to the right place to explore those possibilities... Have you me Audie yet ? she'll give you a run for your money ! Does shaking a figurative hand mean or

Stop thinking so hard, its not that hard to understand. Agreed, best surmounted and summed up by The only thing I know for sure is my belief in God, and Christ and for me, that, is enough. The rest is just details, Thanks Storyteller, Occams Razor, alive and well, from the mouth of babes. applies !

[Storyteller]

My old siggy was simplicity is genius

[Yhwhhallowed]

So evolution could be true if there is ID behind it?

If so, then you can believe in God and still hold with evolution.

In a sence yes although its only in a sence. God couldn't be the creator of all things the creator of all living things according to its kind. How could a perfect God vindacate evolution when we are a product of his own image. If God is a perfect being who had no begining then evolution cant apply to him because evolution always has a start. If man is truly created to reflect his image as a gift from him to us, then clearly we could not of come from a less complex life form like a monkey that does not contain the personal image God provided us to have as a gift. If evolution were true we at some point evolve so far until we became perfectly adapted to live amoung every single element that triggered a change for advancement. Basically we would probably be like a God to the things around us. Although evolution never ends, so what happens when you eventually evolve to be adapted to everything that could ever trigger you to a theory of evolution, according to evolution it does not stop, so will we evolve to be better then God. When we know that even God could not create anything more advanced then himself.

If God could create something with the eventual ability to be better then himself then that creation would have the ability to destroy God. No living being no matter how smart can make something more complex then what they physically are if they are not being helped by something that is more complex.

[Storyteller]

So evolution could be true if there is ID behind it?

If so, then you can believe in God and still hold with evolution.

In a sence yes although its only in a sence. God couldn't be the creator of all things the creator of all living things according to its kind. How could a perfect God vindacate evolution when we are a product of his own image. If God is a perfect being who had no begining then evolution cant apply to him because evolution always has a start. If man is truly created to reflect his image as a gift from him to us, then clearly we could not of come from a less complex life form like a monkey that does not contain the personal image God provided us to have as a gift. If evolution were true we at some point evolve so far until we became perfectly adapted to live amoung every single element that triggered a change for advancement. Basically we would probably be like a God to the things around us. Although evolution never ends, so what happens when you eventualsomething to everything that could ever trigger you to evolve, according to evolution it does not stop, so will we evolve to be better then God. When we know that even God could not create anything more advanced then himself.

If God could create something with the eventual ability to be better then himself then that creation would have the ability to destroy God. No living being no matter how smart can make something more complex then what they physically are if they are not being helped by something that is more complex.

We are in His image through our spirit not our flesh so it is still perfectly feasible that evolution could be true.

Everything that exists has always had the potential to exist.

[Audie]

Another words man cannot and will never prove how things work or how life began outside the environment we have been provided. Man believes in theory a great bang sparked the ability for life to begin and before it how the earth was formed. Yet believing the Newtons laws on energy never being created, nor energy being able to be destroyed but only being transformed.


Energy itself can not be evolution because to be mass, objects, star dust, even matter had shown to me mass had a begining because of energy not having a begining and how mass requires energy to ever even exist. Energy is the mother of mass or matter. Evolution stops there because all products contained within the theory are always changing, becoming more, or better due to its environment, things never stop evolving according to it.



.

Stop thinking so hard, its not that hard to understand. If whatever started us isn't who we call God then it is surely something else, if I new how then I would shake a figurative hand of that being for giving me life.

A couple of things...Science does not do proof, proof is to be found in math, not science.

Note that you are offering a hypothesis that man cannot see things outside his own environment. You've not said what this environment is exactly, but all you have is a hypothesis about our ability.

Newtons laws of energy cannot ever be proved to be true.

Your mixing of evolution into the origins of the universe is kind of peculiar. ToE is about how life has changed, not how it originated.

As for stop thinking.... no thanks.

[Yhwhhallowed]

So evolution could be true if there is ID behind it?

If so, then you can believe in God and still hold with evolution.

In a sence yes although its only in a sence. God couldn't be the creator of all things the creator of all living things according to its kind. How could a perfect God vindacate evolution when we are a product of his own image. If God is a perfect being who had no begining then evolution cant apply to him because evolution always has a start. If man is truly created to reflect his image as a gift from him to us, then clearly we could not of come from a less complex life form like a monkey that does not contain the personal image God provided us to have as a gift. If evolution were true we at some point evolve so far until we became perfectly adapted to live amoung every single element that triggered a change for advancement. Basically we would probably be like a God to the things around us. Although evolution never ends, so what happens when you eventualsomething to everything that could ever trigger you to evolve, according to evolution it does not stop, so will we evolve to be better then God. When we know that even God could not create anything more advanced then himself.

If God could create something with the eventual ability to be better then himself then that creation would have the ability to destroy God. No living being no matter how smart can make something more complex then what they physically are if they are not being helped by something that is more complex.

We are in His image through our spirit not our flesh so it is still perfectly feasible that evolution could be true.

Everything that exists has always had the potential to exist.

We are created in his image to know right and wrong, to make choices, to hate, to love, to be upset, to use mind to create things just like he has created you. An animal can be trained, even the most advanced animal such as maybe a monkey will could never have all these things although it does not mean they don't reflect some.

[Audie]

Welcome from me too YH.

Silver has a good point about paragraphs. Your post is actually pretty interesting but is hard to read.

The point of it all is evolution cant exist before mass or matter is made physical by the makeup source being energy. Without matter there is only energy, without energy matter cant exist backing up Newtons laws of energy being an contant source with no start or end. Surely it takes a form of energy to even set an object being matter into motion. In every way you look at this energy controls matter, hence the saying "mind over matter". Energy is the mother of matter, since energy has no begining it proves matter had one due to its control over matter and how energy comes first to build it, to set it in motion, or to destroy it. Just this alone disproves both "Evolution" and "the great bang theory".

The great bang theory is wrong because energy might be a constant source, energy is like matter it does not will itself to form matter then to set that matter in motion. Energy as we know it powers us our things, like electronics. But it always takes something with intelligence to tell energy how it will be directed or conducted. So it proves through these actual factors that something with some form of intelligence has either directed energy as we do our selves, or energy itself is a product coming directly from an intelligent individual.

None the less it proves someone has done all this and what I have shown must be seen by all who will listen. Science itself has just I believe solved a desirable question is God real. Well after you have seen what I have said you tell me.

You might consider taking a dose of humility tonic here. You have offered (what you present as) a simple disproof of a theory supported by an immense body of data, and accepted by physicists / cosmologists world wide. Yet you dont actually even know the name of the theory you think you've disproved.

[Storyteller]

So evolution could be true if there is ID behind it?

If so, then you can believe in God and still hold with evolution.

In a sence yes although its only in a sence. God couldn't be the creator of all things the creator of all living things according to its kind. How could a perfect God vindacate evolution when we are a product of his own image. If God is a perfect being who had no begining then evolution cant apply to him because evolution always has a start. If man is truly created to reflect his image as a gift from him to us, then clearly we could not of come from a less complex life form like a monkey that does not contain the personal image God provided us to have as a gift. If evolution were true we at some point evolve so far until we became perfectly adapted to live amoung every single element that triggered a change for advancement. Basically we would probably be like a God to the things around us. Although evolution never ends, so what happens when you eventualsomething to everything that could ever trigger you to evolve, according to evolution it does not stop, so will we evolve to be better then God. When we know that even God could not create anything more advanced then himself.

If God could create something with the eventual ability to be better then himself then that creation would have the ability to destroy God. No living being no matter how smart can make something more complex then what they physically are if they are not being helped by something that is more complex.

We are in His image through our spirit not our flesh so it is still perfectly feasible that evolution could be true.

Everything that exists has always had the potential to exist.

We are created in his image to know right and wrong, to make choices, to hate, to love, to be upset, to use mind to create things just like he has created you. An animal can be trained, even the most advanced animal such as maybe a monkey will could never have all these things although it does not mean they don't reflect some.

I could have sworn I had already posted this but it seems not after all.

Did you know there is a gorilla that was taught sign language?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_%28gorilla%29

Monkeys can, and do, use tools. That shows a high level of intelligence, does it not? Is it then not, at least, possible that we evolved?

God provided the blueprint, we just developed it?

As I say I don`t have my feet fully in ToE camp but neither can I totally discredit it.

[Yhwhhallowed]

Evolution exists in theory by a start of a molecule or an organic molecule, like any other molecule such as water molecules. Even a single molecule is mass or a physical part of matter. So another words you are telling me that energy that powers you and I to type with movements from our finger by the commands of our brain, does not sanctify intelligence powering over energy, as energy powering over mass. Only one of these two known things can be destroyed physically. And surely its can't be energy, so it leaves matter or that first molecule according to evolution that would first have to be willed by energy before it could move or even be a property of matter. So within this void of just energy without time and existence of space, matter and the elements we know, who directed such energy to combined a molecule on a molecular structure?

Biological evolution is a theory about how life evolves or changes. It's not a theory about how life began or came to exist.

It doesn't """matter""" because from biological makeup to the begining of life itself this all involves mass to be manifest first before biological designs to ever existed. Like I said it takes first energy to first be transformed by something intelligent enough to throw it at all the proper areas that make up the physical things we are surrounded by.

[Storyteller]

It does matter. ToE isn`t about how it all began, it`s about it became what it is. ToE doesn`t claim to answer the why we all are, it tries to answer how.

[Yhwhhallowed]

It does matter. ToE isn`t about how it all began, it`s about it became what it is. ToE doesn`t claim to answer the why we all are, it tries to answer how.

It might matter to only the theory but in reality the only way to figure out how is going to take more then just evolving but becoming to understand the mind of who sparked this constant chain in the first place. If it was not you or i, then who did it and how. The only way to know is to first being there before it began.

[Storyteller]

ToE isn`t about what was at the beginning.

We cannot go beyond the beginning.

What was there before the Big Bang? Before evolution? Before it all?

God.

[Yhwhhallowed]

ToE isn`t about what was at the beginning.

We cannot go beyond the beginning.

What was there before the Big Bang? Before evolution? Before it all?

God.

Then if we cant sanctify truth to the theory of everything then why try to understand it by excepting only a theory and base our advancements in what we can prove to be true. When you say its not about understanding what came before ToE Well what is a theory that ever* could be explained without first always existing*. The answer to all the theories is dependent upon what was or is beyond the brink of what we simply cant understand. Can you comprehend death? No because you must first be prison to it, but what we are told through the bible is death is like a dreamless sleep or a void. We only know what we are a product of. So in this life mans theory mean nothing more then death being something we will never know fully until we pass the brink.

[abelcainsbrother]

Yhwhhallowed

I really like the points you are making but what you are saying is evidence against naturalism in science it does not really effect biological evolution as understood today.There is no evidence for abiogenesis and so atheists in science kick the can down the road with semantics buying them time to try to prove abiogenesis.Right now it is the law of biogenesis they cannot get around that is in their way as they ignore it.

[abelcainsbrother]

Yhwhhallowed

What we need to do is focus on evidence that shows biological evolution is wrong because we have no problem using the big bang theory to defeat naturalism in science.The big bang theory is evidence for a creator so what we need to do is find evidence not from AIG but evidence that shows biological evolution is wrong.Right now there is only one creation theory that does this but very few Christians know about it or understand it or reject for biblical tradition.Evolution has survived for 150 years and has not been defeated by any of the more popular creation theories out there.They have had no effect against biological evolution.