Evidence for God from Science

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:Why were prophets needed to establish the foundation? What exactly did they do?

Because there was no canon of Scripture. The early church needed guidance to deal with specific issues that came up at that point in history. The prophets relayed God's will about particular issues of the day. Note Eph 2:20 on the role of prophets and apostles as laying this foundation.

Still, what the heck is an apostle? I got grilled by mormon elder fellow when I said peter was an apostle -"oh no no no he was a disciple"---

Then your mormon elder friend has never read the NT. Go read Matt 10:2, and cf Acts 1:26. Note also 2 Pet 1:1 and finally Rev 21:14.

There were twelve apostles and no more. Joseph Smith was not an apostle. He was a false prophet, and that is probably an insult to false prophets. He was a charlatan of the worst sort. There's just no reason to take him seriously. If you want to know what a true apostle is (the word, by the way, just means "sent"), go look at Acts 1:26 and its context. You'll get an idea about what the early church considered an apostle to be, and what the the apostles considered themselves if you are willing to admit that Luke is recording an actual event.

I agree that Joseph Smith is a false teacher and prophet but I do not believe that Christians today cannot prophesy,it does not mean there are not false prophets but I believe it is a doctrine of man and not of God to deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit today and if the church knew how to use the gifts properly we may not have so many sceptics and people turning to witch craft for answers because all witch craft is are counterfeit gifts of the Holy Sprit.People should be able to get a word of knowledge instead of calling a psychic,astrologer,etc.I have got a word of knowledge before so I know how it can help a person and it did not hurt me and it pointed me in the right direction as a Christian.

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What does Ephesians 4:11-12 mean? A mormon assured me this is proof of their church with apostles and prophets. Therefore all you heretics should be mormon.

For the curious: I told him "I don't care, that verse means nothing to me because I'm not a Christian; Let's get back on topic talking about cursed black people."

What do you think it means from the plain reading?

PaulSacramento wrote:

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What does Ephesians 4:11-12 mean? A mormon assured me this is proof of their church with apostles and prophets. Therefore all you heretics should be mormon.

For the curious: I told him "I don't care, that verse means nothing to me because I'm not a Christian; Let's get back on topic talking about cursed black people."

What do you think it means from the plain reading?

Jesus dun went and dun gave da ephesians prophets, apostles, and evangelists to help them grow in their faith. They're all necessary to "equip the christians for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." So therefore they're all necessary for modern christians. Kind of just parroting my blonde jesuscamtoamericaandcursednativeamericans-an elder. That's what I think it means from plain reading to answer your question.

And to clarify for everyone who may be concerned: There's a better change of Pope Francis becoming a scientologist than me becoming mormon.

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What does Ephesians 4:11-12 mean? A mormon assured me this is proof of their church with apostles and prophets. Therefore all you heretics should be mormon.

For the curious: I told him "I don't care, that verse means nothing to me because I'm not a Christian; Let's get back on topic talking about cursed black people."

What do you think it means from the plain reading?

Jesus dun went and dun gave da ephesians prophets, apostles, and evangelists to help them grow in their faith. They're all necessary to "equip the christians for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." So therefore they're all necessary for modern christians. Kind of just parroting my blonde jesuscamtoamericaandcursednativeamericans-an elder. That's what I think it means from plain reading to answer your question.

And to clarify for everyone who may be concerned: There's a better change of Pope Francis becoming a scientologist than me becoming mormon.

I suggest that you use the search engine on this forum and type in Joseph Smith and Mormonism and you will get a wide array of post concerning Mormon doctrines and from these you may find a fuller answer in regards to your first question.
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In regards to the mistaken understanding that due to the cannon of scripture being fulfilled as the proof that the perfect has already come in 1 Cor 13 so that there is no need for prophecy, prophets, apostles, evangelist, pastors, teachers. Then for that premise to be true, then when did the following verse occur?

Rev 11:3, "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." NASB

What is known as the Five Fold Ministry gifts mentioned in Eph 4:4-11 actually do indeed still exist in the church but you will not recognize it as such. Many of those folks who have an Apostolic calling, we call Missionaries as they found and establish churches and ministries. In fact John Wesley is one example of this calling. He founded the early Methodist church, trained leadership, and began orphanages, etc and etc.

While it is true that not all missionaries have an apostolic calling as they do not found ministries in locations cold against Christ. The folks that are melt that coldness in a geographic area in an other worldly fashion. Those with a prophetic calling do indeed exist today and you see them proving erring folks as false prophets, apostles, ministers and warning the church of its Laodicean, Sardis, Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatiran nature. We don't call such folks that anymore. These people are busy helping and aiding others their walk with the Lord in many diverse ways in the words of wisdom and knowledge they use. These people with these callings do not carry a card saying they are prophets, apostle, etc as there is no need - the anointing for the task God assigns them is self evident. However, usually, the people that do claim such offices are not as they end up staining Christianity due their egos and need to feel important as so noted by others on this this thread.

There are still Evangelist, Pastors, Teachers of this group. They have not ceased. Sadly, in today's modern church, the fivefold ministry has been rejected and its fruit is manifest in the increasing Laodicean, Sardis, Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatiran church doctrines out there. The apostasy is alive and well, isn't it?

Next, to limit apostolic and prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral, teacher gifts to only refer to expounding new revelations is silly. Those with the true gifts would never offer new revelations outside the revealed will of God contained in the cannon of scripture. Unfortunately, since these are no longer recognized as valid, we have theologians that tell us that only they know the truth of the bible and all but need only to listen to them. These folks cannot agree among themselves and it is rather odd that the bible does not mention anything about this man made invention as the sole arbitrators of truth for the Christian.

Actual christian doctrine on the fivefold ministry gifts as backed up by the Bible states that there is no hierarchical order or rank, but rather these 5 gifts are equal to each other as they are servants of the Lord sent on the task to serve the body of Christ and help take care of it. Jesus said what about being servants to all? Basically we have one ministry gift permitted in the church world today - the Pastoral. Just one finger out of five to care for the church body. Can one finger do all the work of the other four? No. I do find it peculiar how the Pastoral ministry gift has not cease in a group list that is taught as ceasing. That is not logical. For a God who changes not and is the same yesterday, today, and forever to stop any part of the fivefold servant team would do injustice to himself.

As stated before, those with these ministry gifts do indeed exist and you can spot them serving their fellow Christians according to their respective callings, They do not boast or carry cards and are not into the ego scene. in other words, you may not even notice them at all.

Now regarding the Mormon issue of misusing this text to establish a hierarchical command structure for their false religious system that is self evident as the people are to serve the hierarchy of their order. The Mormon system is based on exalting human ego and control over others. These folks work real hard to become gods and have as many goddess wives as they can to populate their planet with. It is all about ego building in the Mormon Hierarchy and to compare that system with one mentioned in Eph 4 text is silly as they are not the same at all.

Jewish New Testament Commentary makes a good point on these...

Jewish New Testament Commentary

1 Corinthians 12:12-31

Believers have an organismic unity like that of a body; indeed, they are parts of such a body, the body of the Messiah (1Co 12:27; compare 1Co 6:15; Rom 12:5; Eph 1:23, Eph 2:16, Eph 4:4-16; Col 1:18, Col 2:19). Therefore, all members of the Messiah's body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free (1Co 12:13), have their places determined by God and have appropriate functions (ministries) which they should find and develop, trusting God for empowerment by the Holy Spirit. They should appreciate, not envy, others' ministries and gifts. The purpose of the gifts is not self-aggrandizement but building up the whole body in love.

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HappyFlappyDeist wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What does Ephesians 4:11-12 mean? A mormon assured me this is proof of their church with apostles and prophets. Therefore all you heretics should be mormon.

For the curious: I told him "I don't care, that verse means nothing to me because I'm not a Christian; Let's get back on topic talking about cursed black people."

What do you think it means from the plain reading?

Jesus dun went and dun gave da ephesians prophets, apostles, and evangelists to help them grow in their faith. They're all necessary to "equip the christians for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." So therefore they're all necessary for modern christians. Kind of just parroting my blonde jesuscamtoamericaandcursednativeamericans-an elder. That's what I think it means from plain reading to answer your question.

And to clarify for everyone who may be concerned: There's a better change of Pope Francis becoming a scientologist than me becoming mormon.

Lets see what Ephesians says in context:

4 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love

Paul is making a general statement that, although addressed to the Ephesians, is applicable to all congregations and that is for them to:

walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Because there were some personality issues going on, Paul makes a explicit comment on the fact that not every one gets the same "gifts" from the HS:

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

The end result being:

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

This was a statement that some people get gifts and those gifts ALL come from Christ and they are DIFFERENT but that NONE are any greater than the other.

B.W. and Paul S ... ... thanks you two.

I would agree that there are many spiritual gifts listed -- also in 1 Corinthians 13 / 14 or so. As for the apostles, speaking in tongues, prophets. Are they still gifts given by the Holy Spirit? As another poster was explaining -- some of those are Not especially for Now. Apostles were for Bible times only. They were distinguished as having been alive to witness the life and ministry of Christ. Prophets were given a message from God to share with various people / warnings to repent. Tongues -- for sharing with unbelieving Jews. So Now -- If there would be unbelieving Jews in a group and someone from another language wanted to share with them, they would be hearing in their own language without the need of an interpreter. There are guidelines given For the use of tongues in a congregation -- there Must be an interpreter to share with everyone what is being said and only two or three at the most. Most of which is Not the case in churches today.
In some countries -- where there is still 'bush country' -- the Lord uses whatever means He decides to use to further His Gospel to the unbelieving. Most of the time - special speakers to different country have interpreters with them.
But those who refer to themselves as 'Apostle' preaching on Sunday morning. No. They Are men who've felt led to be teachers / preachers. And there's a difference.
And spiritual gifts are given to every believer to be used to encourage / build up the body of Christ.

I would like to know where in the bible does it tell us when the apostles died,the gifts of the Holy Spirit died out too?

Because Paul never told the people at the church of Corinth to stop using the gifts of the Holy Spirit like speaking with tongues he told them I thank God that I speak with tongues more than you all,all Paul was doing was telling them how to use the gifts properly because they were being abused.They are being abused today too however just as Paul taught there is a right way and a wrong way to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit,these gifts are divided to every man severely as he will,which means not every Christian will have the same gifts.

1st Corinthian 12 and 14 was Paul teaching them how to use the gifts of the Holy Sprit properly and he never told them to stop using them.If you are a/Christian who chooses not to have gifts of the Holy Sprit that is OK but you should not judge another Christian who chooses to have these gifts and the only reason you should have a problem is when or if they are not being used properly and I would say if you have the gift of speaking in tongues you should pray with understanding and you should have a desire to want to know what you just said in tongues and if you don't you are not praying with understanding and are missing out on what praying in tongues is for,you should ask God to interpret what you just said in tongues so you know what you said.
If you had God to interpret what you said in tongues you would get a revelation from God and understand what you spoke in tongues but just speaking in tongues does you no good if you don't know what you said in tongues for you are just speaking mysteries which is what Paul said,not me.

Every believer is given a spiritual gift at the time of salvation. No one Asks for one -- they are given by Holy Spirit. It's up to the individual to find out what his/her's is -- it should be used to build up / help the local church function smoothly. And. yes, there Are specific guidelines given for proper use of tongues. And Paul Did say that he speaks an angelic language -- but he also states that it's more beneficial to the 'body' to speak such that everyone understands. Whatever a person does - it should be done to unit --not cause undue attraction.

abelcainsbrother wrote:I would like to know where in the bible does it tell us when the apostles died,the gifts of the Holy Spirit died out too?

No where does it say this. However people have implied such from 1 Co 13:8-13, "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away..." NKJV

They do so because of the abuses of the gifts and callings of God as mentioned in 1 Co 13:1-3 because it is possible that one can not be governed by God's love in the exercise of these gifts and callings and thus all is mere emptiness. Between 1 Co 12 and 1 Co 14, the two gifts chapters, is placed 1 Co 13 which expresses that the gifts/ministry callings are to be governed by God's Love. To get the idea, place the word of wisdom, for example, where the word love is in 1 Co 13:4-7 and you will get the idea.

Now back to 1 Co 13:8-10:

These verses do not suggest any of the gifts have ceased at all but rather make the following case, once a prophecy is fulfilled it is done, once anything said in any language after a while what is spoken ceases. And the same goes for knowledge, in time it too will fade away. However we need these things today. Bible does indeed teach us to seek and pray for wisdom. It tells us to grow deeper in the knowledge of the Lord. If knowledge has truly ceased then why are we told to ask for it? All kinds of Languages have not ceased either, if they did, then why do we still speak and write each other? No, none of these have ceased or stopped; therefore, the logic of the scriptures indicates this - what is spoken, along with its knowledge, prophecies will one day come to pass and after that new words, better knowledge, more prophecy is needed governed by the love of God.

When?

Answer: when the perfect has come. The only time and place that meets that criteria is found in Revelation 21:1 and also in Isa 65:17-19, Isa 66:22, 2 Pe3:13 only then is when the perfect has truly come. Until now, we see in part and know in part and are growing up, maturing, putting away our childish abuses of the gifts and ministry callings from God, and instead learn to use these governed by God's love - which never fails to guide us, chastise us, make us his people by transforming us out of our darkness into his marvelous light...

Please note that in 1 Co 13:1 two types languages are mentioned and physical languages is one of these two; therefore, the context verifies that the tongues that cease include spoken human languages of human beings and does not refer to only languages of angels. Do angels still speak today? How can the devil still tempt if he cannot speak if this has ceased due to the bible cannon gathered and codified? What happen if another gospel or letter from Peter or Jude is found dated to the 1st century and verified as authentic?

Have a nice day all...
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P.S. A quick word of knowledge on prophecy:

When we confine Prophecy to only mean some sort of foretelling or new Revelation, we miss what it means to be able to prophesied. Prophecy involves being able to put together the patterns, understand the symbols, numbers, otiot, colors, etc, that are used in the scriptures to increase and further develop ones personal relationship, hearing and discerning the ways of the Lord without so much of self getting in the way. There are patterns in the bible that connect to things happening today - like the apostle Paul said - he desires all may prophesy that all may learn and all may be exhorted (1 Co 14:31) for a reason.