Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:People don't like rules and things that they feel infringe on their right to do whatever they want to feel good.
So yes, secularism is increasing and understandably so.

A quick look at the people in prison tells me you don't need to be a secularist/atheist to do what you want; lot of Christians in prison.

Ken

Absolutely.
No ideology has a monopoly on stupidity.

Of course Christianity does NOT say that Christians WON'T misbehave and do bad, on the contrary.

As Augustine said, the body of Christ is a hospital for sinners, not a museum of saints.

That's a great quote.

While I agree that Christian shoudl try to behave better than others since they know better, I do NOT think that in practise that happens all the time because we are all humans.
I know atheists that are better people than some christians.

I see that ( Christians behaving badly) as a sign of not enough Christ, not too much as some suggest erroneously.

I know I am imperfect and need to behave and act better, be more patient and caring and I know that if I am able to be that it is because of My Lord working in me.

That is guess is THE difference perhaps:
A secularist congratulates him/herself for being good.
A Christian thanks the Lord.

Just want to clarify that the Amen is to the last statement, that a Christian thanks the Lord.

Audie: My impression of a couple of other moderators here is that they lean toward the partisan hack side of fair minded. You, I respect, so I will take your word as final here.

Phil said quite a number of things about me that he simply made up, and which are not true at all. I declined to enumerate them, or have any commerece at all with phil;

Audie, WHY do you always see someone challenging your ideas as a personal attack? Do I sometimes use rhetorical sarcasm? Of course, I'm sure you can identify with that because you are clever with its use as well. But what I have tried to do is to show you that your belief options have hard parameters, no matter their nuances. If I have misstated something about that, please elaborate. I do not want you to go anywhere, as you help make this an interesting and challenging forum. You're clearly a very smart woman. But I just can't abandon my sincerely held Christian understandings. And notice that no one here has been preaching to the Bible from you, as mostly we have been discussing what can be known and examined - as well as what cannot. I'm not so sure that the problem is that you see our attacks upon your belief positions as personal, but, perhaps, as unanswerable - especially when asked directly about my premises of belief category options.

You do realize that YOU use constant dismissive sarcasm in responding per the beliefs of various Christians on this forum, do you not? So why, if such sarcasm aimed at your POSITION on things do you take it so personally? Really, you are missing how much people here care about you and what will happen to you. If you think the mods here don't have great concern for you, you have totally misread us. No, we're not perfect and often we probably could communicate better. But I really don't know how to deal with someone with your views less than directly. For us here, the mods, this forum is not just some fun diversion where we try to match wits or win arguments with unbelievers. This is very serious stuff, one's eternal destiny. So if we ask you hard questions, it's not because anyone is out to get you - we most certainly are not. I just wish you knew the hearts of the mods and didn't misunderstand us, as you have often taken offense at our directness. I asked you multiple times point blank how your beliefs didn't fit within specific parameters, but you just got mad. I don't understand that, as I thought the questions were pretty fair, direct and easy to understand.

Land of Delusion.
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=MazHz0vl4L4

Philip wrote:
Audie, WHY do you always see someone challenging your ideas as a personal attack?

I dont. Your choice is to think so, much in keeping with your choice to think (make up) a lot of other things about me. THAT is personal, and when its insulting, it is an attack.

Do I sometimes use rhetorical sarcasm?

If that is how you excuse thinking up a cartoonish version of what "secularists' think and presenting it as real, then I guess it is.

Of course, I'm sure you can identify with that because you are clever with its use as well

Clever enough to be sarcastic without drifting off the tracks into the hallucinatory.

But what I have tried to do is to show you that your belief options have hard parameters, no matter their nuances. If I have misstated something about that, please elaborate

I thought I did, tho I didnt go into detail. How much detail is needed to say a caricature is wrong?

I do not want you to go anywhere, as you help make this an interesting and challenging forum. You're clearly a very smart woman. But I just can't abandon my sincerely held Christian understandings.

Im aware that its a problem for some Christians. My type specimen example would be Dr Kurt Wise, trained in paleontology but unable to deal with the contradictions other than to, as he put it.." I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate."


sorry, but Im unable to respect that kind of thinking.

You do realize that YOU use constant dismissive sarcasm in responding per the beliefs of various Christians on this forum, do you not? So why, if such sarcasm aimed at your POSITION on things do you take it so personally?

I don not deliberately misrepresent others' beliefs. That seems to me a major difference between you and me.

Please state what statement aimed at my position is something I ever took personally. I deny that such happened, but, Im open to correction on that.

Really, you are missing how much people here care about you and what will happen to you. If you think the mods here don't have great concern for you, you have totally misread us. No, we're not perfect and often we probably could communicate better. But I really don't know how to deal with someone with your views less than directly.

Direct is good. I dont object. What I object to is when you take what I say, or dont say, and come up with a person I cannot recognize as the one you are addressing. There were so many, I dont care to go back and excise all the false statements you made about me. I will note them in the future, if you keep doing it.

For us here, the mods, this forum is not just some fun diversion where we try to match wits or win arguments with unbelievers. This is very serious stuff, one's eternal destiny. So if we ask you hard questions, it's not because anyone is out to get you - we most certainly are not

Hard questions are good. I ask them myself and of myself. Dont expect me to be a theoretical astrophysicist, tho. You are not, I am not. We cannot have a meaningful conversation on that, any more than two first grade boys dressed for 20 below can have a meaningful fight.

I just wish you knew the hearts of the mods and didn't misunderstand us, as you have often taken offense at our directness. I asked you multiple times point blank how your beliefs didn't fit within specific parameters, but you just got mad.

Such irritation as I felt was not for the reasons you seem to think.

I don't understand that, as I thought the questions were pretty fair, direct and easy to understand

And I dont understand making things up to state as fact.

I've too much on my mind to do theoretical astrophysics right now, other than to sy that your representation does not seem to me consistent with either my own thinking, nor that of physics as I've understood it from what little reading / listening I've done.

I will take my 'gentler sex" prerogative to change my mind, and make one more try at finding common ground. Ideally, some mutual respect.

I don't know if you are still active on this current thread anymore, but I wanted to let you know I understand where you are coming from. The simple fact is that online communication is limited and can be so easily misconstrued. On top of that, since you have a different mindset the majority of the users here, the communication and the attempts to express meaning will be even more confused, especially since we simply don't have any way to express out non-verbal messages expect for a few cute emoticons. (BTW, are you an atheist, agnostic, or a deist?) Actually, most of my posts and the posts from my original account which was lost were challenging questions about God that stemmed from my own skepticism, so I can sympathize with people who don't believe in God. Hopefully if we all try to use more neutral and sympathetic language, we won't have to waste any more time misinterpreting each other and explaining what we meant. I don't know if this phrase has meaning in your life in particular, but God bless.

Onetheist wrote:After my father passed away five years ago due to sudden cancer, I am the only remaining believer in my family. In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh!
I have to put God away and keep Jesus out of conversations and such or else they will become offended. This is all very subtle but you get the picture. In addition to this, they each have two children so
they have made the decision to keep it real simple for their kids, "there is no God". They tell their kids that God is just a made up fantasy from our ancestors so that they could have hope.

Can anyone relate to this story? Its very difficult because I happen to know for a fact that they are so wrong about God. LOL However, I also know that there is nothing they can do to change my mind,
and that there is most likely nothing I can do to enlighten them either. The worst part of this story is that they are my family. It is like losing a family to atheism. Hush hush now, or you wont be invited to
the next pop up family gathering. Wowzers!

Just looking to hear other stories or situations from those who can relate. Not sure about advice, however if someone has a special key I will accept it. Thank you...

First off , my condolences to you my friend about your father . I lost my father last year to cancer so I know what it's like to lose someone so important to our lives .

If I were you I would approach it in a different way . I would actually use an indirect approach to show them that atheism is truly a religion more then a position of logic, reason and science .

The way you described your other family members it looks to me like they are the common garden variety militant atheists .

Check the nde thread we have here and start studying Nde's on a deep level . Nde's show compelling evidence of the afterlife from a scientific level . Once you paint them into a corner with Nde's they will either have to deny their beloved science or admit that what religion has been saying (that there is an afterlife and that our soul lives in after our body dies ) is right ,and what atheism has been saying for the most part) for thousands of years (that there is no soul or afterlife) is wrong they will either ignore the evidence or admit that their assumptions were in fact dogmatic articles of faith .

At this point you can then say " see we are both people of faith , except my faith has even more evidence then yours

I know there is a certain atheist here who keeps claiming no evidence dogmatically but that certain atheist doesn't seem to have time to look into nde
No names need to be mentioned

ConfusedMan wrote:I don't know if you are still active on this current thread anymore, but I wanted to let you know I understand where you are coming from. The simple fact is that online communication is limited and can be so easily misconstrued. On top of that, since you have a different mindset the majority of the users here, the communication and the attempts to express meaning will be even more confused, especially since we simply don't have any way to express out non-verbal messages expect for a few cute emoticons. (BTW, are you an atheist, agnostic, or a deist?) Actually, most of my posts and the posts from my original account which was lost were challenging questions about God that stemmed from my own skepticism, so I can sympathize with people who don't believe in God. Hopefully if we all try to use more neutral and sympathetic language, we won't have to waste any more time misinterpreting each other and explaining what we meant. I don't know if this phrase has meaning in your life in particular, but God bless.

I'm just me. I suppose I am an a-theist in the sense you might be an a-Angolan stickballist, if labeling someone as a not-something is the mindset. I suppose your mindset may have it that some god is the central concept of the universe.
To me, its not.

To me its more like the centrality of football, falltime in a college town, from the pov (mine) of zero interest.
Noisy and sometimes intrusive, but lacking interest or merit.

Its essentially like that. That is roughly where god / religion/ church stand in my life. I dont expect Americans to identify with how I think or where I am coming from.

I appreciate your having expressed your thoughts.

M

Audie wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:I don't know if you are still active on this current thread anymore, but I wanted to let you know I understand where you are coming from. The simple fact is that online communication is limited and can be so easily misconstrued. On top of that, since you have a different mindset the majority of the users here, the communication and the attempts to express meaning will be even more confused, especially since we simply don't have any way to express out non-verbal messages expect for a few cute emoticons. (BTW, are you an atheist, agnostic, or a deist?) Actually, most of my posts and the posts from my original account which was lost were challenging questions about God that stemmed from my own skepticism, so I can sympathize with people who don't believe in God. Hopefully if we all try to use more neutral and sympathetic language, we won't have to waste any more time misinterpreting each other and explaining what we meant. I don't know if this phrase has meaning in your life in particular, but God bless.

I'm just me. I suppose I am an a-theist in the sense you might be an a-Angolan stickballist, if labeling someone as a not-something is the mindset. I suppose your mindset may have it that some god is the central concept of the universe.
To me, its not.

To me its more like the centrality of football, falltime in a college town, from the pov (mine) of zero interest.
Noisy and sometimes intrusive, but lacking interest or merit.

Its essentially like that. That is roughly where god / religion/ church stand in my life. I dont expect Americans to identify with how I think or where I am coming from.

I appreciate your having expressed your thoughts.

M

Well said. I can only encourage you to look into the subject of God more from where I stand so that you might be, as said in the confounded language of Christianese, "saved". But that is and will always be a personal choice, and I respect that. Best of luck to you, and don't let the other posters bother you. I don't quite get them sometimes either, but hey, that applies to all people in life.

ConfusedMan: your username was ManofGod. it is still valid and active username. you may have forgotten the email or password, but that is not a problem to tell you.

Onetheist wrote:After my father passed away five years ago due to sudden cancer, I am the only remaining believer in my family. In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh!
I have to put God away and keep Jesus out of conversations and such or else they will become offended. This is all very subtle but you get the picture. In addition to this, they each have two children so
they have made the decision to keep it real simple for their kids, "there is no God". They tell their kids that God is just a made up fantasy from our ancestors so that they could have hope.

Can anyone relate to this story? Its very difficult because I happen to know for a fact that they are so wrong about God. LOL However, I also know that there is nothing they can do to change my mind,
and that there is most likely nothing I can do to enlighten them either. The worst part of this story is that they are my family. It is like losing a family to atheism. Hush hush now, or you wont be invited to
the next pop up family gathering. Wowzers!

Just looking to hear other stories or situations from those who can relate. Not sure about advice, however if someone has a special key I will accept it. Thank you...

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I will bet there are many atheists who feel the same way you feel; except they are losing their family to Christianity.

Ken

ConfusedMan wrote:

Audie wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:I don't know if you are still active on this current thread anymore, but I wanted to let you know I understand where you are coming from. The simple fact is that online communication is limited and can be so easily misconstrued. On top of that, since you have a different mindset the majority of the users here, the communication and the attempts to express meaning will be even more confused, especially since we simply don't have any way to express out non-verbal messages expect for a few cute emoticons. (BTW, are you an atheist, agnostic, or a deist?) Actually, most of my posts and the posts from my original account which was lost were challenging questions about God that stemmed from my own skepticism, so I can sympathize with people who don't believe in God. Hopefully if we all try to use more neutral and sympathetic language, we won't have to waste any more time misinterpreting each other and explaining what we meant. I don't know if this phrase has meaning in your life in particular, but God bless.

I'm just me. I suppose I am an a-theist in the sense you might be an a-Angolan stickballist, if labeling someone as a not-something is the mindset. I suppose your mindset may have it that some god is the central concept of the universe.
To me, its not.

To me its more like the centrality of football, falltime in a college town, from the pov (mine) of zero interest.
Noisy and sometimes intrusive, but lacking interest or merit.

Its essentially like that. That is roughly where god / religion/ church stand in my life. I dont expect Americans to identify with how I think or where I am coming from.

I appreciate your having expressed your thoughts.

M

Well said. I can only encourage you to look into the subject of God more from where I stand so that you might be, as said in the confounded language of Christianese, "saved". But that is and will always be a personal choice, and I respect that. Best of luck to you, and don't let the other posters bother you. I don't quite get them sometimes either, but hey, that applies to all people in life.

I have. If the kind of crazy ideas I see talked about in any way represent an effect that religion has on people, I want no part in it.

As for not getting them, I get it all too well, generally.

One that baffles me, tho, is how anyone, let alone so many of them
display a complete lack of conscience about making things up and stating them as fact.

No need to look far for examples.

Min, what you said, is this your general observation?

You know, many poeple were affected by Christianity in many great ways.

1over137 wrote:Min, what you said, is this your general observation?

You know, many poeple were affected by Christianity in many great ways.

I dont know percents. On this forum, and elsewhere, tho, its common as hairs on a dog's back.
I wish it werent so.

Audie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Min, what you said, is this your general observation?

You know, many poeple were affected by Christianity in many great ways.

I dont know percents. On this forum, and elsewhere, tho, its common as hairs on a dog's back.
I wish it werent so.

Min, we all love you, dearly.

I am incredibly sad that you feel that way.