Evidence for God from Science

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Muslims in Gaza and the "West Bank" also claim that Jesus was a Palestinian. And faithful Muslims also say that Abraham and Jesus were Muslims.

Now, I'm confused PaulSacramento says Jesus is Jewish, Starhunter says Jesus is SDA, Mormons say he's the god of this world, Ricardo says Jesus is Christian and I think Jesus is Roman Catholic.

Who's right?

FL

Jesus is God.

RickD wrote: Apparently so. You said they are being criticized for not getting drunk, when I criticized them for their unbiblical teaching to abstain from alcohol. While the bible does say not to get drunk on wine, it doesn't say that believers have to abstain from drinking alcohol.

And the bible says that if people choose to hold one day as more important than others, that's between a believer and God. What the bible does not say, as SDAs teach, is that believers must observe the Sabbath.

So you tell me, is it your grip of the English language that's lacking, or do you just refuse to see?

What I am saying is, what is wrong with abstaining from drinking poison and keeping the Sabbath as God commands and as Jesus kept?

SDA's are among the longest living and healthiest people on earth, that seems like an honorable thing to do, "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?" I admire all who do their best to look after their God given life.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/

I'm not saying that there is nothing disagreeable within SDA churches, I don't know them very well at all, but so far as their name is concerned, it is true.

Now you have introduced me to the 28 beliefs of SDA's and I must say they don't contradict scripture, so far as I have read. They don't go into full detail with some points either, but I guess that is what happens when you want to canonize beliefs.

Storyteller wrote:
Jesus is God.

Then what could be wrong with keeping God's commandments and the faith of Jesus?

What I am basically saying is that the name of the religion is not flawed in itself - just like some other names of churches.
And what some are saying here is quite correct, - Jesus was a JW, a Catholic and so forth, by definition of their title.
Catholic just means "world church." Jesus is the world church for believers.

But if we are going to socialize with a particular church, it has to stand up to the doctrines of the Bible.

For example, a JW, Jesus says we are His witnesses, so the name is right, but does a true witness say that Jesus is not God?
Obviously no.

So we are to examine ourselves to see that we are in the right faith, and IMO that means exploring and testing belief systems by the Bible, which is what I am doing here with SDA's.

Starhunter wrote:

RickD wrote: Apparently so. You said they are being criticized for not getting drunk, when I criticized them for their unbiblical teaching to abstain from alcohol. While the bible does say not to get drunk on wine, it doesn't say that believers have to abstain from drinking alcohol.

And the bible says that if people choose to hold one day as more important than others, that's between a believer and God. What the bible does not say, as SDAs teach, is that believers must observe the Sabbath.

So you tell me, is it your grip of the English language that's lacking, or do you just refuse to see?

What I am saying is, what is wrong with abstaining from drinking poison and keeping the Sabbath as God commands and as Jesus kept?

SDA's are among the longest living and healthiest people on earth, that seems like an honorable thing to do, "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?" I admire all who do their best to look after their God given life.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/

If you were simply asking, "What's wrong with abstaining from drinking alcohol?", I would say that there's nothing wrong with a believer abstaining from drinking alcohol. That's between each believer and God. But you were agreeing with SDA who tell their adherents that they don't have a choice in the matter. Drinking alcohol is simply not allowed. I'm sure you can understand the difference, can't you?

And if you were simply asking, "What's wrong with worshiping God on Saturday?", I would say that there's nothing wrong with that. It's between the individual believer and God. But you are saying that you agree with SDA that say THE day of worship HAS TO BE SATURDAY. And you are also saying that believers are COMMANDED TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Which is simply unbiblical. I hope you can see the difference on one hand, that a believer can to choose to worship God on Saturday, if he chooses, and on the other hand, being COMMANDED to make Saturday THE DAY of worship, and adhering to an unbiblical belief that believers are commanded to follow the Sabbath laws which were given exclusively to OT Israel.

You can see the difference, can't you?

I pointed out Enoch before, that he kept the 7th day Sabbath as God had instructed Adam, and he is quoted in Jude as preaching the Advent of Christ, so technically he was a Seventh Day Adventist.

Now if SDA's don't hold up to the test of scripture in so far as their teachings are concerned, then Enoch could not have been an SDA, and neither could I call Jesus an SDA. On the other hand... I am curious, because so far no one has been able to prove from scripture that any of their beliefs as listed in the 28 "fundamentals" or church creed, are incorrect.

Now to charge any Christian organisation with Pharisee-ism would be too easy, because every church has them, or so I'm told.
Any doctrine can be looked at from a narrow view, but that does not disprove its basic truth - which can always be kept by faith and love.

The Pharisees created ridiculous burdens on the Sabbath, Jesus did the opposite, by removing burdens.

Then we have the other extreme where people lie about the commandments, make them redundant and don't keep the Sabbath, they disobey God's commandments, or say they don't exist or are of no value, and one religion even changed the Sabbath day to Sunday the first day - which all of Christendom reveres, except for a few like the Christian Jews, Seventh day Baptists (if they still exist) and Seventh day Adventists. There are a couple of non Christian religions which keep the Sabbath as well.

http://www.bible.ca/7-churches.htm - a list of 7th day Sabbath keeping churches.

I'm saying that if a truth exists in the Bible, then hypocrisy on the part of anyone else is no excuse in denying it.

RickD wrote:
If you were simply asking, "What's wrong with abstaining from drinking alcohol?", I would say that there's nothing wrong with a believer abstaining from drinking alcohol. That's between each believer and God. But you were agreeing with SDA who tell their adherents that they don't have a choice in the matter. Drinking alcohol is simply not allowed. I'm sure you can understand the difference, can't you?

And if you were simply asking, "What's wrong with worshiping God on Saturday?", I would say that there's nothing wrong with that. It's between the individual believer and God. But you are saying that you agree with SDA that say THE day of worship HAS TO BE SATURDAY. And you are also saying that believers are COMMANDED TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Which is simply unbiblical. I hope you can see the difference on one hand, that a believer can to choose to worship God on Saturday, if he chooses, and on the other hand, being COMMANDED to make Saturday THE DAY of worship, and adhering to an unbiblical belief that believers are commanded to follow the Sabbath laws which were given exclusively to OT Israel.

You can see the difference, can't you?

Yes, I basically go along with that.
Force has nothing to do with love. I don't know what goes on in churches, because I don't go there, but if people or an organization starts demanding religious adherence it's not on.
But if God commands something, that's a different thing altogether.

Here we might disagree on certain points, and we may argue and try to convince each other, but at the end of the day it's every man to himself. Faith is a personal journey.

Doing something out of love for God is perfect, and that always involves freedom of choice, for sure.

Starhunter wrote:

RickD wrote: Apparently so. You said they are being criticized for not getting drunk, when I criticized them for their unbiblical teaching to abstain from alcohol. While the bible does say not to get drunk on wine, it doesn't say that believers have to abstain from drinking alcohol.

And the bible says that if people choose to hold one day as more important than others, that's between a believer and God. What the bible does not say, as SDAs teach, is that believers must observe the Sabbath.

So you tell me, is it your grip of the English language that's lacking, or do you just refuse to see?

What I am saying is, what is wrong with abstaining from drinking poison and keeping the Sabbath as God commands and as Jesus kept?

SDA's are among the longest living and healthiest people on earth, that seems like an honorable thing to do, "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?" I admire all who do their best to look after their God given life.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/

I'm not saying that there is nothing disagreeable within SDA churches, I don't know them very well at all, but so far as their name is concerned, it is true.

Now you have introduced me to the 28 beliefs of SDA's and I must say they don't contradict scripture, so far as I have read. They don't go into full detail with some points either, but I guess that is what happens when you want to canonize beliefs.

Jesus kept the sabbath because he was Jewish although, like I stated earlier, he was often accused of breaking the sabbath because he did not keep it like OTHERS thought he should.
In Jesus' time the closes to 7th day Adventist were probably the Pharisees.
Jesus did not abstain from drinking alcohol(wine), where did you get that notion?

PaulSacramento wrote:
Jesus kept the sabbath because he was Jewish although, like I stated earlier, he was often accused of breaking the sabbath because he did not keep it like OTHERS thought he should.
In Jesus' time the closes to 7th day Adventist were probably the Pharisees.
Jesus did not abstain from drinking alcohol(wine), where did you get that notion?

True, but the criticism and hypocrisy of the Pharisees did not annihilate Jesus' respect for the commandments of God, rather He established them for their eternally spiritual value, which the Jewish leaders had largely over looked and forgotten, and neglected.

About the alcohol thing, the Bible overall teaches abstinence from alcohol unless it is administered by someone else to ease suffering for physical or mental pain.
The Bible does not mention violent DVD movies either, or smoking tobacco. What's your point?

If you respect the temple of God which your body is, you will not deliberately drink a poison like alcohol. "Thou shalt not kill." Includes intemperance and neglect of duty towards ones own health.

Starhunter wrote:
I pointed out Enoch before, that he kept the 7th day Sabbath as God had instructed Adam, and he is quoted in Jude as preaching the Advent of Christ, so technically he was a Seventh Day Adventist.

Where in the bible does it say that Enoch "kept the Sabbath"?

Now if SDA's don't hold up to the test of scripture in so far as their teachings are concerned, then Enoch could not have been an SDA, and neither could I call Jesus an SDA. On the other hand... I am curious, because so far no one has been able to prove from scripture that any of their beliefs as listed in the 28 "fundamentals" or church creed, are incorrect.

I listed a few of SDA's 28 fundamentals that are not in scripture.

1) Their belief that believers must abstain from alcohol and other foods- "the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic
beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness."

2) Their belief that believers must observe the sabbath-"The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath."

3) Ellen G White's writings are a "continuing and authoritative source of truth which
provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction."

These beliefs are not backed by scripture. If you believe they are, the onus is on you to prove it.

Then we have the other extreme where people lie about the commandments, make them redundant and don't keep the Sabbath, they disobey God's commandments, or say they don't exist or are of no value, and one religion even changed the Sabbath day to Sunday the first day - which all of Christendom reveres, except for a few like the Christian Jews, Seventh day Baptists (if they still exist) and Seventh day Adventists. There are a couple of non Christian religions which keep the Sabbath as well.

Believers are not told in the bible to keep the Sabbath(however you want to define "keep"). The Sabbath laws were a shadow of Jesus Christ. If you don't understand that, you are missing the importance of what Christ did.

About the alcohol thing, the Bible overall teaches abstinence from alcohol unless it is administered by someone else to ease suffering for physical or mental pain.

Where? The onus is on you to show this.

The Bible does not mention violent DVD movies either, or smoking tobacco. What's your point?

If a religious group, which holds to the bible as being the source of spiritual truth, holds to certain doctrines as "fundamentals", is it too much to ask that these fundamental beliefs are actually backed by scripture?

If you respect the temple of God which your body is, you will not deliberately drink a poison like alcohol. "Thou shalt not kill." Includes intemperance and neglect of duty towards ones own health.

Show me from scripture, that the word ratsach in Exodus 20:13, can be defined the way you define it. Ratsach is defined:

to murder, slay, kill

(Qal) to murder, slay

premeditated

accidental

as avenger

slayer (intentional) (participle)

(Niphal) to be slain

(Piel)

to murder, assassinate

murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

(Pual) to be killed

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lex ... 523&t=NASB

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:
Jesus kept the sabbath because he was Jewish although, like I stated earlier, he was often accused of breaking the sabbath because he did not keep it like OTHERS thought he should.
In Jesus' time the closes to 7th day Adventist were probably the Pharisees.
Jesus did not abstain from drinking alcohol(wine), where did you get that notion?

True, but the criticism and hypocrisy of the Pharisees did not annihilate Jesus' respect for the commandments of God, rather He established them for their eternally spiritual value, which the Jewish leaders had largely over looked and forgotten, and neglected.

About the alcohol thing, the Bible overall teaches abstinence from alcohol unless it is administered by someone else to ease suffering for physical or mental pain.
The Bible does not mention violent DVD movies either, or smoking tobacco. What's your point?

If you respect the temple of God which your body is, you will not deliberately drink a poison like alcohol. "Thou shalt not kill." Includes intemperance and neglect of duty towards ones own health.

*ahem* the Lord's supper *ahem*, the wedding at Cana where Jesus turns water into wine.

Not sure where you are getting your info since the LIVING Son of God actually drank.

Starhunter,
Wine is actually been proven to be good for you, so far from poison.
I drink, very moderately and have never been drunk ( just not my thing).
I respect those that choose not to drink BUT I do not see a prohibition to drinking in the 612 laws in the bible.
Can you show me where it is?

PaulSacramento wrote:Starhunter,
Wine is actually been proven to be good for you, so far from poison.
I drink, very moderately and have never been drunk ( just not my thing).
I respect those that choose not to drink BUT I do not see a prohibition to drinking in the 612 laws in the bible.
Can you show me where it is?

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy." I Corinthians 3:17.

About wine, the Bible mentions wine and strong drink which is fermented wine. But wine is typically the unfermented juice of the grape, and does not always immediately imply alcoholic beverage.
Jesus turned water into wine, He did not ferment the thing.

But Catholics and alcoholics see wine as bubbly stuff. The wine that Jesus and the disciples drank was unfermented and representative of the sinless blood of Christ, in the same way that the unleavened bread represents the life of Christ without the blemishes of sin.

I'll show some verses later.

Rick D,
The Sabbath was instituted and commanded in the garden of Eden, after creation.
All of the faithful to God kept the Sabbath, and always have whenever the knowledge has been retained.

Starhunter wrote:Rick D,
The Sabbath was instituted and commanded in the garden of Eden, after creation.
All of the faithful to God kept the Sabbath, and always have whenever the knowledge has been retained.

Bible verses to back this up?
"Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur."

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Starhunter,
Wine is actually been proven to be good for you, so far from poison.
I drink, very moderately and have never been drunk ( just not my thing).
I respect those that choose not to drink BUT I do not see a prohibition to drinking in the 612 laws in the bible.
Can you show me where it is?

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy." I Corinthians 3:17.

About wine, the Bible mentions wine and strong drink which is fermented wine. But wine is typically the unfermented juice of the grape, and does not always immediately imply alcoholic beverage.
Jesus turned water into wine, He did not ferment the thing.

But Catholics and alcoholics see wine as bubbly stuff. The wine that Jesus and the disciples drank was unfermented and representative of the sinless blood of Christ, in the same way that the unleavened bread represents the life of Christ without the blemishes of sin.

I'll show some verses later.

This oughta be good.