Evidence for God from Science

Ever heard of the Piraha people? They are a primitive tribe of the Amazon rain forest who have no concept of God. When the guy studying them (Daniel Everette) told them about Jesus, they didn't believe him and lost interest. Now what is their world view? It obviously doesn't include God, it obviously doesn't include anything to do with science; but yet they are atheists. So what are their atheist world views?

Their atheism IS their SPIRITUAL worldview - at least as far as it ultimately matters per Christian teachings/belief in God/salvation - which is my frame of reference. It also means they are non-theists - which traps them in hard parameters of what is possible (or actually IMPOSSIBLE) for the universe's origins. And, yes, they can believe in all manner of metaphysics, doesn't really matter, from a spiritual view.

When told of Jesus, there was a reason for their lack of further interest: (from Wikipedia)"they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence based on personal experience for every claim made."

Further: "However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[4](pp112,134-142) Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach."

So, they DO believe in something metaphysical, something they insist they actually "heard."

Philip wrote:

FL: Atheists will laugh Bippy's idea that atheism is a religion.

Doesn't matter if they laugh at it - as atheism IS a personal religion, based upon certain unproven assumptions. So, for them, it IS a religion. And it IS believed upon faith that a universe popped into existence and THEN organized itself, down to the tiniest of extraordinary details, amidst a vast array of complex and precisely tuned mechanisms. Perhaps FL was just a more sophisticated atheist, more serious about it, had their own "services" ("met on Wednesdays") and "sermon"s ("to listen to taped lectures by noted atheists), arrogant ("We were vocal, we were hard liners") and missed out a lot of good food and family arguments ("refused to participate in pseudo-religious feasts like Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter") . Oh, and they are OLDER than most of today's atheists, didn't have the internet - other than those, they sound very familiar, and unfortunately, were just as lost. Thankfully, FL was transformed - into the nice, respectful, polite and PC Christian he is today.

Excellent post, Philip! I enjoyed your sarcasm! The following explains some things point by point.

Philip wrote:Doesn't matter if they laugh at it - as atheism IS a personal religion, based upon certain unproven assumptions. So, for them, it IS a religion

I know that, now! Heck, even Konfused Kenny understands that!

Kenny wrote:Sounds like you were a member of a very angry religious cult.

Philip wrote: Perhaps FL was just a more sophisticated atheist, more serious about it, had their own "services" ("met on Wednesdays") and "sermon"s ("to listen to taped lectures by noted atheists)

If you do a search on this Forum, you'll see that I've several times referred to my Wednesday meetings as "Atheist Church". I may not have tact but I do have integrity! Atheism is a religion but modern atheists do not understand that and telling them that it is a religion is useless. They can't see that because they are stupid (Ps 14:1), blind (Mt 11:17, 18, 19) and hate God (Romans 8:7, James 4:4). Before going beserk on me, remember that God says this, not I.

Philip wrote:[they were] arrogant ("We were vocal, we were hard liners") and missed out a lot of good food and family arguments ("refused to participate in pseudo-religious feasts like Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter")

Nah...atheists - real ones - don't care about religious parties and I "missed" nothing. I bet the sissy atheists we have here participate in all that religious merrymaking. Hypocrites! That's like a born again Christian reading his horoscope It just makes no sense.

Philip wrote:Oh, and they are OLDER than most of today's atheists, didn't have the internet - other than those, they sound very familiar, and unfortunately, were just as lost.

Atheists back then were just as stupid as today's version, and just as spiritually dead. The Bible is Timeless and Ps 14:1 applies to today just as much as it applied to when I was an atheist. The difference between then and now is that we older guys had some idea of what was in the Bible whereas today's atheists largely do not. Ditto for most nominal Christians. To wit,

Audie wrote:I know your bible better than most xtians, btw. Not that its hard to.

Her posts show a general ignorance of what the Bible says but I have no doubt she knows more than most "Christians" because most nominal Christian are quite ignorant about the Bible.

Philip wrote:Thankfully, FL was transformed - into the nice, respectful, polite and PC Christian he is today.

And do you remember how someone becomes a Christian? Through the calling of the Holy Spirit. On our own, we hate God and are unable to come to Him...rather we are unwilling to have anything to do with God. Atheists and nominal Christians think Christianity is something we adopt, like a puppy, which pleases us for a while. Or they may think it is like a soap which cleans us for a while, one soap being pretty much like another (as in "All religions lead to God"). The dumbest atheists see Christianity as a crutch...yeah, like I was ever the type to need a crutch! (There are other stupid assumptions atheists have abot Christians but these 3 are the most common.)

You and I know that people like Audie & Kenny are extremely religious because their foolish faith is obvious to all but themselves. They can't see it now and are a long way from acknowledging it. If they ever are called to Christ, they may remember the time they spent on God & Science and smile wryly.

FL

If they ever are called to Christ, they may remember the time they spent on God & Science and smile wryly.

FL

I do pray that will happen! Ultimately, at the end, God will give them EXACTLY what they want. And I hope it is HIM!

Saying athiem isn't a worldview is like saying that anarchism isn't a polical position.

Philip wrote:Their atheism IS their SPIRITUAL worldview - at least as far as it ultimately matters per Christian teachings/belief in God/salvation - which is my frame of reference.

What makes their world view spiritual?

Philip wrote:It also means they are non-theists -

How are you defining the differences between “non-theism” and Atheism?

Philip wrote:which traps them in hard parameters of what is possible (or actually IMPOSSIBLE) for the universe's origins. And, yes, they can believe in all manner of metaphysics, doesn't really matter, from a spiritual view.

Not sure what metaphysics has to do with this, but Okay….

Philip wrote:When told of Jesus, there was a reason for their lack of further interest: (from Wikipedia)"they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence based on personal experience for every claim made."

How is this different from Atheism?

Philip wrote:Further: "However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[4](pp112,134-142) Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach."

So, they DO believe in something metaphysical, something they insist they actually "heard."

But they don’t believe in a Deity, thus they are Atheist. Again; what does their atheist world view consist of, and how is it similar to mine since we are all atheists?

ken

SoCalExile wrote:Saying athiem isn't a worldview is like saying that anarchism isn't a polical position.

Why is it every time I look around in these types of discussions, some Theists is always trying to accuse us Atheists of having faith or being a religion? No matter how often we insist we are not, you guys are always scraping the bottom of the barrel, often changing the definition of the words all in an effort to accuse us of having faith or being a religion! You never see us doing that to you guys!

If you told me that you've come to the conclusion that God does exist and you came to this conclusion without the use of reason or logic but only faith, I will be fine with that and recognize that the reason your beliefs don't make sense to me is because your beliefs are unreasonable and illogical unlike my own. I will Not expend any effort looking for an excuse to claim your beliefs are anything but what you say they are. Now why can't you guys be the same with us? Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Ken

Kenny wrote:Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Sounds?
Faith is not required to conclude he does not exist?

Kenny wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:Saying athiem isn't a worldview is like saying that anarchism isn't a polical position.

Why is it every time I look around in these types of discussions, some Theists is always trying to accuse us Atheists of having faith or being a religion? No matter how often we insist we are not, you guys are always scraping the bottom of the barrel, often changing the definition of the words all in an effort to accuse us of having faith or being a religion! You never see us doing that to you guys!

If you told me that you've come to the conclusion that God does exist and you came to this conclusion without the use of reason or logic but only faith, I will be fine with that and recognize that the reason your beliefs don't make sense to me is because your beliefs are unreasonable and illogical unlike my own. I will Not expend any effort looking for an excuse to claim your beliefs are anything but what you say they are. Now why can't you guys be the same with us? Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Ken

From a guy who comes to a faith-based forum to discuss religion, lol.

Like you say, you disagree with our worldviews; well I disagree with the claim that atheists lack one. Saying atheism is a lack of belief in theism is like saying theism is a lack of belief in atheism. Do you want to have a mature discussion about it or do you just want to complain?

Kenny wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:Saying athiem isn't a worldview is like saying that anarchism isn't a polical position.

Why is it every time I look around in these types of discussions, some Theists is always trying to accuse us Atheists of having faith or being a religion? No matter how often we insist we are not, you guys are always scraping the bottom of the barrel, often changing the definition of the words all in an effort to accuse us of having faith or being a religion! You never see us doing that to you guys!

If you told me that you've come to the conclusion that God does exist and you came to this conclusion without the use of reason or logic but only faith, I will be fine with that and recognize that the reason your beliefs don't make sense to me is because your beliefs are unreasonable and illogical unlike my own. I will Not expend any effort looking for an excuse to claim your beliefs are anything but what you say they are. Now why can't you guys be the same with us? Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Ken

SoCalExile wrote:Like you say, you disagree with our worldviews; well I disagree with the claim that atheists lack one.

What are you talking about? Who said anything about Atheist not having a world view? I said we don't use faith, and Atheism is not a religion; world views was not a part of the conversation.

SoCalExile wrote:Saying atheism is a lack of belief in theism is like saying theism is a lack of belief in atheism.

What on Earth are you talking about??? Who said anything about Atheists not believing in theism? If theism didn't exist; neither would this site or our conversation! Are you sure you're in the right forum?

SoCalExile wrote:Do you want to have a mature discussion about it or do you just want to complain?

Forget complaining; let's start with; What on Earth are you talking about???

Ken

1over137 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Sounds?
Faith is not required to conclude he does not exist?

Yes!

K

Kenny wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Sounds?
Faith is not required to conclude he does not exist?

Yes!

K

Prove, he does not exist, then. Using logic only.

1over137 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Sounds?
Faith is not required to conclude he does not exist?

Yes!

K

Prove, he does not exist, then. Using logic only.

I can't. Proving a negative is often impossible.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Why can't you guys accept the fact that the idea of some invisible guy in the sky looking over everyone shoulder keeping score; sounds illogic and unreasonable to us and faith or religion isn't required to conclude this guy doesn't exist? Why can't you guys be okay with that?

Sounds?
Faith is not required to conclude he does not exist?

Yes!

K

Prove, he does not exist, then. Using logic only.

I can't. Proving a negative is often impossible.

Ken

It's a positive assertion, therefore requiring evidence. Just because you have none doesn't somehow validate the claim.

SoCalExile wrote: It's a positive assertion, therefore requiring evidence. Just because you have none doesn't somehow validate the claim.

No! Proving something DOES exist is a positive assertion; proving something does not exist is proving a negative. Can you prove Santa Clause, or Easter Bunny does not exist? No; proving so requires you to prove a negative.

Ken

How you can claim Kenny that faith is not required to conclude he does not exist?