Wow, thanks for the great feedback guys. I gotta admit, I have yet to read all of them. Here are my answers to some of them so far:
Quote:
“When I call my dog back to the house, I know the results, he won't listen, if he is burying a bone.
But I must call him anyway, to let him know that I am happy to have him here. I don't have to, but then I know that he will miss me calling, besides he thinks that after I wait for two minutes it will be all the more a homely welcome, just because he runs faster. Well yes, I am pleased regardless of what he does, even though I know his responses to my calling. If I want him to go in the car for a ride, I have a different call, which he responds to straight away, bone or fresh meat makes no difference.
So I am all knowing, and yet I concede to whatever happens, because the dog makes me laugh.
I'm not sure what would be any different to an all knowing God, seeing that He has made all things for His pleasure.”
End of quote
Yet if I wanted him to go in the car for a ride, I could give the exact particular call I’d want to give since I know exactly in what way my dog would respond for any call. This gives me the ability to choose his actions based on my omniscient characteristic of knowing the consequences after any particular influence that I do (call). I can’t see how one would be conceding to whatever happens here, rather than choosing whatever happens.
Quote:
“I've been thinking about your Q's and I'm not sure I really get them. Maybe I have not gone into it like you have.
But it's interesting if we look at circumstances and the things which enable matter and life to exist, the finger points at God, because we can't even control whether we are born or not.
Life itself and all the circumstances prove that it takes a lot of factors - infinite in number, to produce and run the creation. And what part of that we play? very little?
What is freedom? Does it require us to have full control of all the factors which make our life? Are we limited, and is that limitation the end of free choice?
I need your feed back, to see if I am staying on course.”
End of quote
These questions are EXACTLY what I’m thinking and wondering about. You’re definitely on course
.
I think the problem here is, after thinking this a bit through, that God is steering us to certain paths which decreases the number of possible options which he KNOWS what they are. This ability isn’t compatible with total freedom. Someone who’s above time and space couldn’t see this as freedom from his perspective.
It indeed takes a lot of factors, infinite in number to produce and run the creation. These factors must be intertwined and influence each other (as I explained how small influences could have indirect consequences to huge things). So, in other words, if one is able to influence one of these factors, ALL of the rest will be influenced by it consequently, thus that someone MUST be able influencing either everything or nothing. That in combination with being omniscient about the influences, means he could influence everything based on HIS permissions.
Quote: “It would be fair to say that we don't really know what is good and bad”
I’d have to completely agree with you on that since God is above our understanding.
B.W.
Quote:
“Despite this, God moves onward with his plans, purposes, and agenda more than able to all powerfully work through all things to steer these to his final goal mentioned in Rev 21:1 because he knows all (omnisciently) well in before any human being ever was.”
End of quote
I’m sorry for being stubborn but let’s compare the verse to what you said there. The verse says he did NOT know, yet you say that God is omniscient. According to you, this means that God PURPOSELY let the people do these actions since he’s able to influence (influencing them in certain ways before which brings them to these actions that God is aware of). Perhaps, this is the way God wanted to fulfil His plans, through these people’s actions. And that must be the only plausible theory if God is omniscient while at the same time being able to influence. Yet, the verse says that he did not know.
Is my previous conclusion about God not being omniscient, drawn from your verse, wrong in any way? If so, please explain to me why it’s wrong while the verse says he’s not omniscient (“did not know”)
As for the commentaries on the verse:
How is one so sure that by “I knew it not” God actually meant He didn’t approve it? Also, if He didn’t approve it, then why would God have influenced these people to certain paths that lead them to choose kings and princes while He knows that his influences would lead them to those choices? A simple analogy: It’s like letting go of a ball and see if the ball would rise up in the sky instead of falling down.
Stuartcr:
Quote:
“If God is above our human logic and understanding, how do we KNOW He is omniscient, omnipotent, and has given us freedom of choice?”
I completely agree with your statement there. Which actually brings the whole Bible in question since it says all of this together. I (as does a lot of others), on the other hand, am trying to make a logical theory out of those given characteristics in the Bible. How are we so sure that God is preceiving the same good and evil as us humans, while He is above our understanding? How are we so sure that God is only influencing small things while He is above our understanding? The questions could go on and on.
via 
to finally 
That's awesome!!!!