Evidence for God from Science

Those of you who reject OSAS turn Christianity into a religion like all other false religions that all teach works for salvation and you are no different than a JW,Mormon,Muslim,Hindu,etc. There is nothing man can do to save himself or do anything to add to what Jesus did.Salvation through Jesus is a blood covenant that cannot be broken.I sugesst you study the book of Romans and Ephesians chapter 2 and 3 and 1st John

Ephesians.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxfOEW-FGE

More than works
https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=EoVWo7YeO4w

Sorry I had to edit.I'm having technical difficulties. I provided the wrong link for More than works,it should be right now.

I know you think if you teach grace Christians will live in sin but you are wrong and the bible in Romans teaches the opposite beauuse says he law makes you sin more and living by grace you will sin less.You see the moment Jesus saved you the Holy spirit changed you you did not change yourself and if you did then your a hypocrite.I know known I am not perfect except through Jesus and what he did for me and I can tell you from the day I was saved the Holy Spirit never left me even in times that I was not as close to Jesus and regardless because of theHoly Spirit it has kept me from getting into things that would lead to problems in my life,I might have strayed but there were things I would not do.

There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

LittleHamster wrote:There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

By saying this you make it seem like the bible contradicts itself that James was at odds with Paul but he was'nt read 1st Corinthians chapter 15 and you'll see that Paul went and met the apostles including James the brother of Jesus,Paul wanted to make sure the gospel he was preaching was not different from what they preached.The Holy Spirit in us will lead us to do good works and James is saying faith without works is dead,in other words there ought to be fruit you re bearing as a Chrristian.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

LittleHamster wrote:There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

By saying this you make it seem like the bible contradicts itself that James was at odds with Paul but he was'nt read 1st Corinthians chapter 15 and you'll see that Paul went and met the apostles including James the brother of Jesus,Paul wanted to make sure the gospel he was preaching was not different from what they preached.The Holy Spirit in us will lead us to do good works and James is saying faith without works is dead,in other words there ought to be fruit you re bearing as a Chrristian.

Very good ablecain. The way I understand it is that works are produced as a result of having faith. Meaning you are still saved regardless of the works.

Here is a bit more on the subject......

(source: http://www.preparingforeternity.com/grace.htm)

You see, works is very closely associated with faith. If we say we have faith and do not have corresponding works, then do we really have faith?
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works." James 2:17,18.

So, faith without works is dead. If we have faith, we will have corresponding works. But our works will not save us, because we are saved by grace. But our works will be judged and rewarded. So, as you can see, works is not a dirty word as some Christians would have you believe. But we have to look at our motives and decide if we are doing things for the right reasons or not.

LittleHamster wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

LittleHamster wrote:There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

By saying this you make it seem like the bible contradicts itself that James was at odds with Paul but he was'nt read 1st Corinthians chapter 15 and you'll see that Paul went and met the apostles including James the brother of Jesus,Paul wanted to make sure the gospel he was preaching was not different from what they preached.The Holy Spirit in us will lead us to do good works and James is saying faith without works is dead,in other words there ought to be fruit you re bearing as a Chrristian.

Very good ablecain. The way I understand it is that works are produced as a result of having faith. Meaning you are still saved regardless of the works.

Here is a bit more on the subject......

(source: http://www.preparingforeternity.com/grace.htm)

You see, works is very closely associated with faith. If we say we have faith and do not have corresponding works, then do we really have faith?
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works." James 2:17,18.

So, faith without works is dead. If we have faith, we will have corresponding works. But our works will not save us, because we are saved by grace. But our works will be judged and rewarded. So, as you can see, works is not a dirty word as some Christians would have you believe. But we have to look at our motives and decide if we are doing things for the right reasons or not.

Amen! I also believe James is saying as a Christian God has a purpose for us,we all have a calling and we need to find out what it is.But our salvation is not based on our performance. Salvation is a gift that cannot be enhanced by what we do,we can not do anything to make us more saved than we already are once we receive Jesus and are saved.We are not getting browny points for doing things we are supposed to already be doing and yet fulfilling some but not all of the things we are supposed to be doing. All sin is equal but we catorogize sin and act like out little sin doesn't count when it does but thanks be to God and what Jesus did for us that Jesus takes up the slack of our weaknesses and we are fully justified by what Jesus did and nothing man can do.

Well then, I guess we wrapped that up pretty quickly. Incidentally, I have not yet found or heard of any convincing argument as to why OSAS is invalid. This includes evidence found in

(i) scripture,
(ii) christian mysticism,
(iii) other religions,
(iv) new age books,
(v) talking to people,
(vi) and my own experiences.

If anyone out there has even a skerric of evidence including texts, ideas, notions or anything anywhere about the invalidity of OSAS, I want to hear it !

LittleHamster wrote:Well then, I guess we wrapped that up pretty quickly. Incidentally, I have not yet found or heard of any convincing argument as to why OSAS is invalid. This includes evidence found in

(i) scripture,
(ii) christian mysticism,
(iii) other religions,
(iv) new age books,
(v) talking to people,
(vi) and my own experiences.

If anyone out there has even a skerric of evidence including texts, ideas, notions or anything anywhere about the invalidity of OSAS, I want to hear it !

OK then you force me say this. For those who believe a person can lose their salvation they should provide scripture that says it,because you won't find it anywhere in the new Testament.It is man adding things into salvation because they think Christians will sin more if they teach grace instead of law,so we must have law too.It is a control mentality and makes a mockery out of what Jesus did on the cross.

The Jews are proof nobody can lose their salvation.You see God made a blood covenant with Abraham and God still honors that blood covenant today even when the Jews have rejected Jesus,this proves blood covenants are not broken by God at anytime and salvation is a blood covenant by the blood of Jesus that we enter into the moment we get saved by Jesus.144,000 Jews will come through the tribulation believing and saved by Jesus Christ because God never breaks blood covenants regardless of sin.

LittleHamster wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

LittleHamster wrote:There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

By saying this you make it seem like the bible contradicts itself that James was at odds with Paul but he was'nt read 1st Corinthians chapter 15 and you'll see that Paul went and met the apostles including James the brother of Jesus,Paul wanted to make sure the gospel he was preaching was not different from what they preached.The Holy Spirit in us will lead us to do good works and James is saying faith without works is dead,in other words there ought to be fruit you re bearing as a Chrristian.

Very good ablecain. The way I understand it is that works are produced as a result of having faith. Meaning you are still saved regardless of the works.

Here is a bit more on the subject......

(source: http://www.preparingforeternity.com/grace.htm)

You see, works is very closely associated with faith. If we say we have faith and do not have corresponding works, then do we really have faith?
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works." James 2:17,18.

So, faith without works is dead. If we have faith, we will have corresponding works. But our works will not save us, because we are saved by grace. But our works will be judged and rewarded. So, as you can see, works is not a dirty word as some Christians would have you believe. But we have to look at our motives and decide if we are doing things for the right reasons or not.

And I only want to point out that it is God who judges us. Certainly it is not us who can look on someone's works and judge: "hey, you are not Christian, you do not have genuine faith."
Certainly, it is not us who see all things.

Plus Philippians 1:6

Just my two cents.

I think we need to think about Jesus and remember what he went through for us. Think about how he fulfilled the law for us and willingly laid his life down and shed his blood for us paying for every sin we could commit and being punished for us so that we don't have to.

When I think about Jesus I like to do it listening to this song sometimes.I dedicate this song to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Wind beneath my.wings

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jorJh8DTMVM

The blood of Christ, purchased all humanity from the ownership by sin, regardless of whether they know or believe.
That purchase came with the following necessities and benefits.

To be alive and have life.
To have choices and free will
To have a kernel of faith
To have the protection and influence of God's angels
To be given ample opportunities to respond to God's impressions on the soul
To experience consequence of thoughts and actions

Then to the one who responds to God, and led to Him as the Savior of the world, there is more - this is where the reconciliation is recognized which begins a much more direct and living way, to relate to the living Christ.
This is where the above purchase with all the benefits is appreciated, and God is glorified by gratitude.

But all have this blood of Christ on them, by the very fact that they are living.

But no one really lives until they are communicating with God. This is what is meant by the Life which is in Christ - spiritual union. So that "I have come that they may have life, and have it more abundantly." Ordinary life for all the world, and eternal life for all the world if they recognize this and repent. Repent means that the goodness of God causes us to love Him, to turn away from sin.

Then comes the third benefit, which is a new life in Christ, which can be traded in by faithlessness.
The idea is to stay with Christ, just like in a marriage, you stay faithful to your partner, you don't cheat and come back like a bucket expecting a house party.

These unfaithful are called reprobates, backsliders, truce breakers, traitors, disobedient, for which there is nothing but a certain and fearful judgement, unless they repent.

You cannot have a backslider unless they were once a believer, so there is no such thing as once saved always saved.

And for those who think this is against their "precious Christian security," - they need to get over themselves, all they ever think of is their own seat. They need to grow up and be responsible, dependable and faithful !

The whole point of the gospel is to make men and women mature, and to cease from childish egocentric ways.

If once saved always saved is true, Paul and the apostles and disciples and Christ Himself, would not have bothered warning the converted, lest they have their faith stolen through deception and laziness.

But not everyone has that concept of the OSAS. Simply because they are looking at it from the Divine aspect, which is "I have always loved you, gave my Son for you, I will never leave you, you are mine forever."

That's good.

Starhunter wrote:The blood of Christ, purchased all humanity from the ownership by sin, regardless of whether they know or believe.
That purchase came with the following necessities and benefits.

To be alive and have life.
To have choices and free will
To have a kernel of faith
To have the protection and influence of God's angels
To be given ample opportunities to respond to God's impressions on the soul
To experience consequence of thoughts and actions

Then to the one who responds to God, and led to Him as the Savior of the world, there is more - this is where the reconciliation is recognized which begins a much more direct and living way, to relate to the living Christ.
This is where the above purchase with all the benefits is appreciated, and God is glorified by gratitude.

But all have this blood of Christ on them, by the very fact that they are living.

But no one really lives until they are communicating with God. This is what is meant by the Life which is in Christ - spiritual union. So that "I have come that they may have life, and have it more abundantly." Ordinary life for all the world, and eternal life for all the world if they recognize this and repent. Repent means that the goodness of God causes us to love Him, to turn away from sin.

Then comes the third benefit, which is a new life in Christ, which can be traded in by faithlessness.
The idea is to stay with Christ, just like in a marriage, you stay faithful to your partner, you don't cheat and come back like a bucket expecting a house party.

These unfaithful are called reprobates, backsliders, truce breakers, traitors, disobedient, for which there is nothing but a certain and fearful judgement, unless they repent.

You cannot have a backslider unless they were once a believer, so there is no such thing as once saved always saved.

And for those who think this is against their "precious Christian security," - they need to get over themselves, all they ever think of is their own seat. They need to grow up and be responsible, dependable and faithful !

The whole point of the gospel is to make men and women mature, and to cease from childish egocentric ways.

If once saved always saved is true, Paul and the apostles and disciples and Christ Himself, would not have bothered warning the converted, lest they have their faith stolen through deception and laziness.

But not everyone has that concept of the OSAS. Simply because they are looking at it from the Divine aspect, which is "I have always loved you, gave my Son for you, I will never leave you, you are mine forever."

That's good.

Are you saying people do not have to be saved? That they already are saved? Because Jesus said " You must be born again."

I am not saying there is no consequences for a Christian living in sin,however I am saying they cannot lose their salvation.There is a difference.

B.W wrote:It comes down the the word believe. In Greek and Hebrew the word translated believe/faith is rich in meaning. Think of it this way," one becomes what they believe," is a better way to put it.

Hebrew concept of believe/faith is of action - being part of and belonging to something/or someone in a covenant or family or kin fashion. It is more of a deep bond that blood is thicker than water. Another idea was that of a weaker party trusting themselves to a stronger party to join with them as party of a family or nation. Another shade of meaning ancient Hebrew had for faith was placing oneself under the care of another to learn from them ie to yoke themselves to another to learn of them, their ways and craft, etc. In all, believe/faith involved action of becoming what one believes.

Likewise the ancient Greek concept of believe is similar but involved more mental persuasion to be thoroughly convinced to join in a fellowship with another. Then there are further nuances of that further refined the meaning of the words faith and believe that emphasized mere mental ascent to agreement on a matter, to coming into a living relationship with another, or to be loyal and committed to another as one would in a Treaty. Believe and faith have a wide range of meanings in the context they are written in but the bottom line is that one becomes what they believe in which involves a change of mind and action. This change comes by being fully persuaded to surrender to one stronger and attach yourself in their care and trust.

If one believes in Santa Claus that involves mere mental ascent. Sadly, most modern folks define believe/faith in this way as simple mental agreement that has no bearing on being yoked too another and learning from them as Jesus describes in Matthew 11:28-30

Matthew 11:28-30 fits the best description of the Hebrew concept of believe and faith. Convinced to surrender yourself totally to the God and team up with him, becoming adopted son's and daughters of God assuming the responsibilities of this relationship. Again this stresses the relational aspect of faith/believe and the actions involved in that relationship.

With God, believing in Jesus involves the same concepts with the caveat of God's Grace involved - that he will never let us go. If we stray, he is the good shepherd who seeks the lost straying sheep and leads them back home. Once you are his, you remain his. When you believe that, you become what you believe and one believes in a living Lord who died in a manner that proves he will not let you go. A person with this kind of faith will change their mind about what they say and do and progressively learn what in means, how to be, and the responsibilities of being yoked together with Jesus.

If one merely mentally ascents to believing in Jesus as one believes in Santa Claus, then I would not give one iota for their salvation claims because they continue on living as though God does not exist in their personal lives. These are folks who are not saved, never saved, and a tree is know by its fruit. There is no conscience in regards to sin in their lives but only a using of God to gain their personal gets and wants is evident. However, we cannot judge folks as God can and these folks can come to their senses later and become born again and released from being a slave to their sin nature.

This is clearly one of the main issues, if not the main issue -- understanding the intended "faith" or "belief".

Firstly, it is sad that the issue of a "legitimate" faith if-you-will generally devolves into an argument between works and grace.
I think we can sometimes trip ourselves up. We know what we mean, but the words seem to elude us, can come out wrong, or being taken wrong -- even when two or more people are actually in large agreement. Everyone who understands, knows that talk of grace and works is often balanced on a knife's edge, and if we make a small slip up in our language then we appear to fall down on one side or the other rather than achieving the right balance.

For me, I see that "faith" and "belief" as intended in Scripture -- the saving variety -- is so simple to understand, and yet complex enough that many miss the nail and fail to get at what it means. Thankfully I see that many Christians have it, even if they may not be able to define what this saving faith is precisely. Think about the child-like faith of a child. We all know that THAT is the right kind Jesus speaks of -- theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

What is this? As the father of four, I'm in privileged to see it in action.
They're all heart in their belief. So simple, so trusting, so complete.
They trust me and my words. I have to challenge them. They're too trusting.
I want to make sure they're equipped as they mature. And I don't always give them the answers.
And yet, it's so beautiful to see and even experience their faith in me -- their belief in me -- and as such in Christ and God.
I know such is meant to be exchanged for a more stubborn-headed child in their adolescence, but right now it's so beautiful their faith in me.
Breaks my heart that some parents are cruel to their children, or that people just see them as an annoyance and frustration.
The love and trust of a child is just so pure.

The one thing God knows is the person's heart.
God does care about action, but what He prizes and sees value in are our innermost beings and desire.
We could do all that is right, but if our heart is not in it, then such is empty and meaningless as far as what God truly desires.
Similarly, we're all quite fickle and inconsistent in actions even with strong beliefs and desires that we hold close to our hearts.

So then, thankfully it's not in the end result of our actions that God sees value in us for (in which case we'd all lose value having all sinned), but rather God sees the value of us in our inner most being -- seeing a heart that while being wrapped in strangling vines and thorns of a physical body and associated weak-mindedness, that the very core of this person actually calling on and longing for for God and unto Christ Himself who cuts through all those vines.

• "For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

I see that the most eye-opening Scripture on "belief" is found in Paul's writings of Romans 10:

• 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

With our hearts we believe. That's not simply rational assent.
Indeed, James 2:19 notes that even the demons believe in one true God and tremble (the belief used in this verse being a form of rational assent).
And then James proceeds to talk of faith (rational assent) without works being dead. Saving faith (belief in Christ) appears something more then, than rational assent.

Paul hits it on the head when he says with our hearts we believe -- truly believe. The outworking of this heart belief is confession with ones mouth, perhaps the most simple piece of evidence or "work" if you will any heart belief ought to result in (which falls into line with James' works chatter).

And before anyone jumps on me, it's not that speaking (a work) necessarily saves, rather a righteousness is attained when the heart of the person fixates upon Christ. The calling upon the Lord is the obvious completion of what's inward heart for God and faith being placed in Christ which saves. It is the most basic of basic works, to confess with your mouth what your heart already believes to be true.

I'm sure what I've written here isn't perfect, but hopefully there's some thoughts to glean in what I've written.