Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

[Nessa]

what about Hosea 13:16? was that a punishment for guilt and if so does that make God at least part of abortion?

[RickD]

what about Hosea 13:16? was that a punishment for guilt and if so does that make God at least part of abortion?

Define abortion, in the way you are using it.

[Nessa]

so i read in the newpaper a woman ripped apart another persons stomach to kill a baby...is that not a form of aborting a baby in the womb? if so then what took place was
a form of abortion

why do I feel you are just being trickey....

"did you cheat Rickd?"

"define cheating"

intentional death of a baby in the womb caused by another

[Nessa]

trickey ricky

[RickD]

Sorry Nessa,

I'm not trying to be tricky, and I'm not ignoring you. I can't give you a proper response right now. I will when I get a chance.

[Jac3510]

intentional death of a baby in the womb caused by another

To be clear, I'm not answering for Rick, but I read this and the following questions popped into my mind . . .

Does God do anything unintentionally?
Is there anything that happens that God did not do or cause?

Feels to me like the question (along with the OP) really just reduces to whether or not God is under a moral standard, that His actions (which are identical with Himself) are in some sense susceptible to judgment.

I'm in a blunt mood today (for you, Rick! ), but I'd just put on the table that every person who has ever died by any means whatsoever, God did it.

[Nessa]

Ok.. lets go..

The problem I have with Coplan's moral monster book is that, although not without merit, it drives us towards a certain direction

We go from defending the faith to defending God

"Uh oh , God You did it again... now how am I suppose to get you out of this mess?!... better go look for some possible technicalities..just stay right there and dont move, just stay out of trouble!"

Are the atheists trying to have their day in court and we need to become God's lawyer to try to bail him out?" That's the danger I think we can head towards.

Job wanted his day in court and we all know the way that ended....and to think certain people on this board accuse moi of asking too many questions

If we are busy trying to "defend" God (instead of our faith) then are we actually becoming God and God is becoming the Creature?

[Jac3510]

"Uh oh , God You did it again... now how am I suppose to get you out of this mess?!... better go look for some possible technicalities..just stay right there and dont move, just stay out of trouble!"

Are the atheists trying to have their day in court and we need to become God's lawyer to try to bail him out?" That's the danger I think we can head towards.

Job wanted his day in court and we all know the way that ended....and to think certain people on this board accuse moi of asking too many questions

If we are busy trying to "defend" God (instead of our faith) then are we actually becoming God and God is becoming the Creature?

[RickD]

Nessa,

I think if we are going to speak to atheists or whoever about God, we need to understand His nature, and how to defend His nature, against those who come against it.

So, I agree that God doesn't need us to defend Him, like in court. But if our arguments are going to be persuasive, we need to defend proper doctrine.

[Philip]

Does God do anything unintentionally?
Is there anything that happens that God did not do or cause?

Well, clearly, God does not do or cause EVIL!

[Philip]

And, Jac, BTW, this is getting at the truth of the matter: Sometimes God DOES take life. And He HAS used Israel and other nations to punish various parties. Also, this is taking people to task who assume that such actions - even by God - would be immoral or evil. In fact, some here are so certain that God didn't or couldn't do this or that, that they are willing to assert any such recorded acts cannot be true or that God actually did or ordained them. And that is what I am questioning: human beings with so little understanding of God and His ways, His purposes, His reasons would have us assume that they can put a judgement of evil on or question some of His recorded actions or instructions. I would say that is preposterous beyond one's imagination, presuming one can accurately do so concerning actions and words of God.

[Nessa]

"Uh oh , God You did it again... now how am I suppose to get you out of this mess?!... better go look for some possible technicalities..just stay right there and dont move, just stay out of trouble!"

Are the atheists trying to have their day in court and we need to become God's lawyer to try to bail him out?" That's the danger I think we can head towards.

Job wanted his day in court and we all know the way that ended....and to think certain people on this board accuse moi of asking too many questions

If we are busy trying to "defend" God (instead of our faith) then are we actually becoming God and God is becoming the Creature?

Thanks for the clap & like.. it actually made me feel chuffed that you liked what I wrote. It kinda came to me in the shower..though I didnt put that.. in fear someone would say ... stick to singing

[Kurieuo]

Well, prepare for a sledge hammer y'all.

[Kurieuo]

"Uh oh , God You did it again... now how am I suppose to get you out of this mess?!... better go look for some possible technicalities..just stay right there and dont move, just stay out of trouble!"

Are the atheists trying to have their day in court and we need to become God's lawyer to try to bail him out?" That's the danger I think we can head towards.

Job wanted his day in court and we all know the way that ended....and to think certain people on this board accuse moi of asking too many questions

If we are busy trying to "defend" God (instead of our faith) then are we actually becoming God and God is becoming the Creature?

I'm not sure I understand this response fully, nor those who like it.
And it is like neo-x's in the other thread. Let's be clear this isn't just about the OT God, but an immoral God in general.
The two are related, and DS linked to YouTube video of Sam Harris who presents it beautifully.

Let's be clear we're dealing with logical arguments at the end of the day.
Any response may therefore appear cold and clinical, but it's not meant to be a big hug and kiss, and an "I'm so sorry this happened to you. I feel your pain" type of experience. Such a relational response cannot be had, except in true relationship with someone that you can reach out and touch. You know, the kind not behind a keyboard and monitor, not with headphones and a mic -- but actual physical human being.

However, Atheists have made a challenge.
It is a logical challenge and they heavily play upon emotion to cloud any reasonable response.
And now they've presented their own cold logical argument, some of you guys are giving them a taxi cab and to demand noone give a logical response because it's oh so emotional? Bah! There's a a long drawn out word for that in Aussie slang that most people would be offended by. It's goes something like, "buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-illllllllllllllllllllllllshit".
If someone makes a challenge, I have every bloody right to respond.
Whether that's criticising God as presented in the OT or God in real life who allows bad things to happen.
Again, if I believe otherwise then I have every right to respond. They threw down the challenge, let a response be heard.
I will not allow them to criticise and throw down a challenge and then taxi cab away. Some Christians here think we should allow such?
Philip doesn't and offers up some responses, while those who prefer to give a taxi cab just criticise?? I don't get it.
I love you all, but am deeply confused by such.

That is, I'm perplexed by some responses like DS', Jac who liked it and neo-x who think Philip's just trying to "get God off the hook". New flash. I believe God is already off the hook. He needs no justifying. But, the fact is stupid people are taken in by such arguments due to their emotional appeal. And our beliefs, our faith, is what needs defending. Not God. God draws a line at death and is quite capable of defending Himself there. That is where the reality will set in for all.

To not deal with any logical response? I don't get it! And I don't really think you guys think no response should be presented, right?
BUT, simply because Philip doesn't deal with the issue on some relational or emotional level?
Get a grip on reality and what is practical. This is a bloody board.
The argument being is foundationally logical. It merits a logical response.
So Philip tackling it in a correct manner, he's the only one using his mind so it seems to me.
You don't like it, well, place what you think is a good response on the table, other than conceding to the argument based on your emotion and allowing the likes of Sam Harris to laugh himself silly as he rides away in a taxi.

Now, I'm not saying Philip is dealing with the emotional issue.
Indeed he can't. No one can. You have to live it to truly know and associate on that level.
Sometimes to best response, IN REAL LIFE, is to just sit silently with another and listen.

HOWEVER, let's be clear.
Atheists have made an attack on God's existence based upon an immoral God argument.
IT is a rational argument. Rational arguments are cold in their very nature. Spock was rational and highly emotionalness.
SO, any argument of the type that challenges God's goodness needs to be dealt with on this level.

THEN, the more potent appeal to this argument is that it strongly appeals to emotion.
Sam Harris has invoked a classical appeal to emotion (a logical fallacy) to great effect.
Just because it is a logical fallacy (eww, cold rationality there!), doesn't mean it's not effective.
That's the whole point of the appeal! To play upon your emotions and make you believe there has to be truth to it.
To play upon your feelings and mind. Doesn't mean it won't pull at your heart strings.
And you know what, it doesn't mean it is in fact actually true!

NOW, let's say God doesn't exist. Great!
Now what? The world is cold and cruel. Ohh...
Don't like it, kill yourself. Want to indulge in pleasures. Go ahead.
It really doesn't matter one iota what you do.

But, add into the equation God...,
And there are very good reasons to believe God exists (cold logical reasons),
then well, maybe, just perhaps there is meaning to the pain we go through in life.
There is value to life like we all intuitively believe there to be when a child is ripped from their mother's arms and tragically killed.
OR, nothing off limits, God takes babies from our womb for no apparent reason.
I'll tell you now, if you think there was some value to be had there, God not existing means you should just get over it because there is in fact ZERO value without God. ONLY someone who has contemplated suicide, heck maybe even in the last month, can really understand the existential issues so clearly. Because then you're faced with the very real prospect of nothingness or somethingness. And you realise that if you die, and there is nothing, then nothing really mattered. But, if there is something, then God I pray that my final decision to kill myself didn't matter.

Finally, Christianity itself isn't about a God up there somewhere who stood afar.
Rather Christ came down and dwelt amongst us. He took on the pains of life, experienced sorrow.
AND here's something more theologically deeper than your basic standard Christian response that "Jesus died for our sins."
Jesus was reconciling the world to Himself, reconciling God and humanity.
He did not come into the world to condemn, but to reconcile (John 3:17; 2 Corinthians 5:19)
Reconciliation means "the restoration of friendly relations."
In any relationship two can be grieved regardless of who is right and wrong.
In Christ, God essentially says "stuff your sin" which grieves me so.
In Christ, God essentially says let me come down by your side, be in your shoes, to experience life's hardships and joys.
In Christ, God provides an opportunity to humanity who wish to remain angry at Him for their life, the world and all of creation -- to actually do their worst for payback.
In Gethsemane, Jesus was face with one big cup of sorrow to drink. (Matt 26:39)
Jesus who is the Word, and who is identified as the direct Creator of everything that has been made (John 1).
A person only drinks a cup if it is there's to drink? Jesus drinks the cup because He is ultimately responsible for all of creation as Creator.
So you don't like God, then look at Jesus' suffering. Humanity got some good payback. God allowed us to.
But, anger will only get you so far. Anger destroys, even God's righteous anger burns and consumes those who face it.
Christ teaches that greatness is found in forgiveness and mercy.
And yet to receive such, we must accept a proposition. The proposition is seen in Christ who is God nailed to the cross.
Let that sink in. God actually came down here, dwelt with us, experienced life as we do (minus modern luxuries), and then let us literally kill Him.
You want the heart of Christianity, that is it right there. You want faith, Christ with us is what it is all about!

So, if you want to remain bitter at God about how much life can suck,
how unfair it is that small children are killed in the most horrible ways,
how horrible it is that babies are torn from mother's arms during floods (not to mention in the womb by such good humans),
ignoring any good, beauty and love found in life and found in people who do have their heart strings and give a damn after God who imparted such,
then you will die going to your grave believing maybe/maybe not believe God exist. That God didn't give a damn. That God created a bad world and doesn't deserve your respect. That God hasn't reached out to us in the most personal way. That God hasn't lived along side us. That God hasn't suffered and died like us... whatever.

Rest assured in this life, that once it passes, if there is no God then there will be no further meaning.
But, I'm 100% sure that there IS MEANING in life, that God does exist, and some will sadly find there was meaning to it all only too late.
Will it be too late? Yes! Why? Because our lived life demonstrates under no direct influence from God, what our hearts really seek.
And if God existed, you considered Him a mean tyrant. You hated him. Sam Harris will still be Sam Harris in the hereafter.
What will change? Sam knows all the same arguments and he considers God an evil and unjust tyrant.
He'll just realise how weak he is and feeble his arguments are. Such will run him wild and mad inside.
How does a creature who only has meaning due to the source of all meaning judge the One who gives us worth?
We can't. It'll eat away at the person who hates God to no end. The thought that God is actually the source of not only any value, but their own moral judgement with which they condemn God as a tyrant. We damn ourselves to an eternal hell.

And God say, "so be it!" IF a person doesn't come to grips in this life with God, then they will not in the next.
You consider God a tyrant in this life, then God will show you just how much in the next.
Consider the parable to talents. The people thought the Nobleman was harsh and did not want him ruling them. (Luke 19:14)
And then the Nobleman came in His Kingdom and ruler of all. (Luke 19:15)
What happened to those who did not want the Nobleman's reign?
He dealt with them with harshly as the tyrannical ruler they thought him to be, to ultimately give them what they want and free them from his reign (Luke 19:27)

So the decision is before us.
Feel free to point the finger, but God does love us and God will have the last say. It's God's right.
There are also other reasons, logical reason, you know the cold unemotional kind, to believe God exists.
And it is only in Christ that are given rational reasons as to why we should give a damn about God even if he does exist.
BECAUSE only in Christ do we find God reaches out and really gives a damn about us.
There is nothing quite like Christian message where God actually comes down to us.
So, if there is any possibility of there being truth, truth that God exists, truth that God really does care about us, truth that we really do have value like we all tend to think, truth that life really does matter that those in the Positive Atheist movement like to plant in mid-air, then it seems there is only one true contender.

That is my most humble opinion.
But, I'm biased. Just like you, the reader reading this.
So make of it all what you will.

[neo-x]

That is, I'm perplexed by some responses like DS', Jac who liked it and neo-x who think Philip's just trying to "get God off the hook". New flash. I believe God is already off the hook.

K, I will address you post when I have read it properly but just wanted to address this snippet here. I believe the same but the problem is people do try to get God off the hook sometimes unnecessarily and sometimes not for the wrong reasons.

E.g. If Allah commands the slaughter of the infidels, then is he off the hook? Your reasoning may appeal to the believer but then you are half preaching to the choir.