Evidence for God from Science

I just found this thread and feel compelled to comment... I'm a Freemason. A Master Mason, a 32nd degree Mason, and a Knight Templar. But above all, a Christian. There is so much misinformation about Masonry out there!

You know, after I became a Mason, I went online and read the rumors and innuendo about Masonry. It gave me a good laugh... what they described was nothing like what I actually experienced.

For one, it's not a religion. Masonry (at least in the USA) does not allow atheists to join; you must have a religion... but Masonry is not, itself, a religion. One big misconception is that Masonry teaches that all religions are equally true, or that every religion worships the same god. Not true at all.

Just my two cents...

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:I just found this thread and feel compelled to comment... I'm a Freemason. A Master Mason, a 32nd degree Mason, and a Knight Templar. But above all, a Christian. There is so much misinformation about Masonry out there!

You know, after I became a Mason, I went online and read the rumors and innuendo about Masonry. It gave me a good laugh... what they described was nothing like what I actually experienced.

For one, it's not a religion. Masonry (at least in the USA) does not allow atheists to join; you must have a religion... but Masonry is not, itself, a religion. One big misconception is that Masonry teaches that all religions are equally true, or that every religion worships the same god. Not true at all.

Just my two cents...

I'm actually fairly curious to explore you being a Freemason and if that is compatible with Christianity (from what I know, it's not). I'll format this in bullet point style for ease of reading. I'd be interested in answers to all questions but I'll take what you give me

First, what does it mean to be a Christian to you? And what are the requirements (and I'm talking more philosophical and theological here) of being a Mason?

2) In your opinion, is this supreme being (which we would more accurately call existence itself, or Being) able to be expressed any other way than He is YWHW revealed through the prophets, kings, law, Christ and the HS?

3) It's interesting you say masonry doesn't teach that the majority of religions are actually avenues to worship the supreme being who is fixated above all religious expressions. Is that not true? Because that is something that I've positively affirmed with Masons and in their own literature.

4) How does one get to 'heaven'?

5) What is your take on sin? As in, what is it?

6) How does the congregation of Masonry exemplify your devotion to Christ?

7) Is the Bible the Word of God or is it one of many volumes of sacred law?

Would anyone have a problem in your lodge (or any) with you vocally praying to Jesus in the lodge itself? Do you believe Jesus is divine?

Those are some of the things that pop into my head.

Liffa wrote:My son knows a lot about cults - I was in one for awhile and rededicated my life to Christ after leaving. He was raised to love Jesus, was saved at around age 9, baptized, and is a believer. In fact he recently reaffirmed that to my sister. He has been decieived by friends and recruited into Masonry. He is reluctant to talk to me and his father about it because he knows we feel it is a false religion. He agreed to read a book we have for him and have a conversation about it but is now trying to back out. I have been successful at getting people out of cults, in fact it was my life's work for many years and I am so crushed this happened to my own son. I know it is hard for family members to exit counsel their own loved ones and sometimes a third party is necessary - kids, even grown ones never like to hear from their parents that they have made mistakes, so I know my husband and I have our work cut out for us. I have read information about Masonry until my eyes are bloodshot. We are praying and have prayer support from others. But what if we fail to convince him to withdraw from the group? I know he is saved - no doubt in my mind, but isn't following a false religion going apostate and won't he lose his salvation? I believe in eternal security, but isn't apostasy an exception?

I have no more tears left to cry and am numb at the thought we won't spend eternity together. We are a close family and this is tearing us apart but my husband and I can simply not condone this action and we are going to present the truth in love to him. Can anyone tell me if my son is in danger of hell if he remains in this idolatrous group even though I have absolutely no doubts he was saved as s young boy and continued to walk with the Lord. Thank you.

Get him to watch this video by Bill Schnoebelen. An ex-freemason, an ex-witch, ex-satanist, ex-catholic, ex-mormon, etc., etc. He's been around the block and knows his stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rL3I1QFE0

If a Christian is truly a Christian, then being a mason, while having beliefs that are not God-honoring, won't change their spiritual status. But are there not harmful teachings? I'd say there are. But as one who has known many masons, some who are certainly Christians, I can tell you that they often appear unaware of things that might be in conflict with God's teachings.

Mallz wrote:I'm actually fairly curious to explore you being a Freemason and if that is compatible with Christianity (from what I know, it's not). I'll format this in bullet point style for ease of reading. I'd be interested in answers to all questions but I'll take what you give me

Sure, no problem.

First, what does it mean to be a Christian to you?

It means believing in one almighty God as described in the Bible, and that he sent his only begotten son to save us from sin. It means believing that Jesus was crucified and raised up on the third day. And that ultimately he will return and judge the living and the dead. Of course, it also means living the creed as well.

And what are the requirements (and I'm talking more philosophical and theological here) of being a Mason?

At least in the US, you need to be a man, of lawful age (18 or 21 depending on the state), a believer in a supreme being (no atheists allowed), and you must have the recommendation of two masons to join. You must also be of "good report before the world", which means that you must be of good reputation and of no significant criminal history.

2) In your opinion, is this supreme being (which we would more accurately call existence itself, or Being) able to be expressed any other way than He is YWHW revealed through the prophets, kings, law, Christ and the HS?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, to be honest. What do you mean by "expressed"?

3) It's interesting you say masonry doesn't teach that the majority of religions are actually avenues to worship the supreme being who is fixated above all religious expressions. Is that not true? Because that is something that I've positively affirmed with Masons and in their own literature.

There's a fine distinction here that usually gets obliterated in a rush to condemn Masonry. You must have a belief in a supreme being to be a Mason. This does not mean, however, that Masonry teaches that all religions worship the same god. Masonry simply has no stance on the subject, other than saying that no atheist can be a Mason.

Individual masons may disagree, but then again, Masons may have different opinions just like Christians may have different opinions. However, Masonry itself does not teach that all religions worship the same God.

4) How does one get to 'heaven'?

Masonry doesn't provide a path to salvation. I personally believe that it's through Christianity.

5) What is your take on sin? As in, what is it?

A sin is an offense against the rule of God.

6) How does the congregation of Masonry exemplify your devotion to Christ?

There are many central tenets of Masonry that exemplify my devotion to Christ... public service, charity, brotherhood, always striving to be a better person, compassion, and so forth.

7) Is the Bible the Word of God or is it one of many volumes of sacred law?

The Bible is the Word of God. Other masons who are not Christian might see other books as their volume of sacred law. For example, Jewish people may see the Torah as such.

Would anyone have a problem in your lodge (or any) with you vocally praying to Jesus in the lodge itself? Do you believe Jesus is divine?

It's funny you brought this up, because I'm a Knight Templar. Our prayers are to Jesus and our obligations are to Jesus. I believe Jesus is divine.

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:

Mallz wrote: 2) In your opinion, is this supreme being (which we would more accurately call existence itself, or Being) able to be expressed any other way than He is YWHW revealed through the prophets, kings, law, Christ and the HS?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, to be honest. What do you mean by "expressed"?

explained, pretty much. Just noticed my YHWH typo

There's a fine distinction here that usually gets obliterated in a rush to condemn Masonry. You must have a belief in a supreme being to be a Mason. This does not mean, however, that Masonry teaches that all religions worship the same god. Masonry simply has no stance on the subject, other than saying that no atheist can be a Mason.
Individual masons may disagree, but then again, Masons may have different opinions just like Christians may have different opinions. However, Masonry itself does not teach that all religions worship the same God.

I understand what you say, but I do see Masonry having a stance. I'll get back to you with a more deserved response, just wanted to give a quick reply.

It's funny you brought this up, because I'm a Knight Templar. Our prayers are to Jesus and our obligations are to Jesus. I believe Jesus is divine.

I know that, but I want to know if people's individual beliefs are upheld (not suppressed) in the lodge. And is discussion with intent to convert acceptable?

Right on for the rest ^_^, didn't want my reply to be too convoluted. I'll respond more when I can. Welcome to the forums.

In the Lodge Room (e.g. during a meeting), anything that could be divisive is not discussed. That includes things like politics as well as sectarian discussion, including attempts to convert people to your religion. Outside of the meeting (which usually takes place for a few hours twice a month), you can say whatever you want as long as you treat a brother Mason with respect. I know some people who call this evidence that Masonry is evil but I don't. Just because you can't stand up in the middle of a business meeting and start to convert someone doesn't mean Masonry is the devil. (Would this be permitted in your place of work? Probably not there either...)

Individual beliefs are definitely not suppressed, and discussion about religion is acceptable but we don't want our meetings turning into debates about whether Judaism is better than Christianity or whatnot. Surely you understand.

Our various degrees (especially in the Scottish Rite) affirm that your religious beliefs are left entirely to your own conscience, and Masonry makes no comment on them. That's why when people say, "Masonry teaches that all religions are the same", I get puzzled. Masonry says, it's up to you to decide how you feel about the topic.

I don't think that's a bad thing. Ever go to a little league game and participate in a little prayer at the start? Do you ever look at the guy next to you and think, "Hmm, this guy might not be Christian, I shouldn't pray with him?" Of course not...

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:In the Lodge Room (e.g. during a meeting), anything that could be divisive is not discussed. That includes things like politics as well as sectarian discussion, including attempts to convert people to your religion. Outside of the meeting (which usually takes place for a few hours twice a month), you can say whatever you want as long as you treat a brother Mason with respect. I know some people who call this evidence that Masonry is evil but I don't. Just because you can't stand up in the middle of a business meeting and start to convert someone doesn't mean Masonry is the devil. (Would this be permitted in your place of work? Probably not there either...)

I don't see that as evidence Masonry is evil how you're probably using the term. I see evil as a degeneration from perfection, so in that sense I would call anything exclusive to knowing truth 'evil'. But I understand the imposed harmony of such an interfaith group.

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:Individual beliefs are definitely not suppressed, and discussion about religion is acceptable but we don't want our meetings turning into debates about whether Judaism is better than Christianity or whatnot. Surely you understand.

I understand it's not the place for what it is set up as but I think better is the wrong term. It's what is true vs. what is delusional.

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:Our various degrees (especially in the Scottish Rite) affirm that your religious beliefs are left entirely to your own conscience, and Masonry makes no comment on them. That's why when people say, "Masonry teaches that all religions are the same", I get puzzled. Masonry says, it's up to you to decide how you feel about the topic.
I don't think that's a bad thing. Ever go to a little league game and participate in a little prayer at the start? Do you ever look at the guy next to you and think, "Hmm, this guy might not be Christian, I shouldn't pray with him?" Of course not...

So, Masonry makes a comment on them by being neutral (if anything its ignorance). It's not about separation because of faiths. If anything you're in a position to enlighten and show the truth of Jesus. Everyone who is a child of God is by nature my brother (who is my sister and mother and friend etc.), and besides self proclaimed faith, we don't truly know as only God knows hearts. So anyone I see I treat them as a brother, because I want them to be, because I know He wants them to be His child.

I'm curious, does seeing people in your brotherhood that you know are walking to damnation motivate you (and this can be progressive) to direct them towards the truth of Christ? What are the principles of Masonry in relation to how you want to treat a brother and be treated? And compared to how Christ teaches? I already see a conflicting teaching of one enabling self destruction where the other is salvation from self.

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:Masonry doesn't provide a path to salvation. I personally believe that it's through Christianity.

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)

What would you tell a fellow Mason who didn't believe that Christ was the only way for us have inherit eternal life and be with God hereafter? Would you fear for them being lost?

Jesus also said elsewhere, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." (Matt 7:13)

Mallz wrote:So, Masonry makes a comment on them by being neutral (if anything its ignorance).

I have to disagree there. The Masonic stance is very clear... Masonry leaves it up to you to decide. So it's far from calling all religions equally valid. And plus -- how many facets of your life take a stand on this? Maybe your church does, but when I walked into McDonalds this morning to get my coffee, I wasn't thinking "I wonder if this franchise has an opinion on my eternal salvation." No stance does not tell you anything, really.

Kurieuo wrote:What would you tell a fellow Mason who didn't believe that Christ was the only way for us have inherit eternal life and be with God hereafter? Would you fear for them being lost?

Everyone in my lodge is a Christian so this hasn't come up, but I would.

Ecclesiastes12 wrote: I have to disagree there. The Masonic stance is very clear... Masonry leaves it up to you to decide. So it's far from calling all religions equally valid. And plus -- how many facets of your life take a stand on this? Maybe your church does, but when I walked into McDonalds this morning to get my coffee, I wasn't thinking "I wonder if this franchise has an opinion on my eternal salvation." No stance does not tell you anything, really.

I don't go to a building designated to worship. The church to me is the body of Christ. I'm not saying Masonry is a religion, nor Mcdonalds (I view Masonry more of a fraternity than a business, though ). When I walk around I see darkness and light and people creating or emphasizing either, sometimes in the same sentence spoken or written. It's just being aware of the state of the world and the situation we are in, especially in Christ. So, yes, the church should be including Him in every facet of life.

I still see Masonry take a stance when it says things like: "...In different languages, the Creator is known by different names. He may be called God, Allah, Jehovah, YHWH, I Am That I Am and others." - http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.c ... mason.html. Is this an erroneous site to use with you? From what I have learned previously, Masonry makes all religions an equal path to recognizing and following this supreme being. It would be one thing to be areligous, but Masonry ins't structured that way, like a football team or fan club would be.

Ecclesiastes12 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:What would you tell a fellow Mason who didn't believe that Christ was the only way for us have inherit eternal life and be with God hereafter? Would you fear for them being lost?

Everyone in my lodge is a Christian so this hasn't come up, but I would.

So then, as you see matters, Christians can be Masons but not all Masons are Christian?

Mallz wrote:I still see Masonry take a stance when it says things like: "...In different languages, the Creator is known by different names. He may be called God, Allah, Jehovah, YHWH, I Am That I Am and others." - http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.c ... mason.html. Is this an erroneous site to use with you? From what I have learned previously, Masonry makes all religions an equal path to recognizing and following this supreme being. It would be one thing to be areligous, but Masonry ins't structured that way, like a football team or fan club would be.

One person does not speak for all of Freemasonry. It wouldn't be fair if I said, "I just read that Pope Francis is the earthly representative of Christ, so all Christians believe that." (Although if you're Catholic, you might just agree with the statement. ) Anyway, just because one Mason believes something (no matter how prestigious they might be), not all Masons believe that way.

An example is the state of Freemasonry in continental Europe. If you want to be a Mason in France, you need not profess a belief in a creator. They changed the requirements so that atheists can be Masons. However, that form of Freemasonry is considered illegitimate in the eyes of American Freemasonry. They cannot visit our lodges, nor can we visit theirs. So if a French Mason started talking about Masonry, he'd have no standing to comment on what we do in the US.

That being said, I think that quote refers to the fact that you must have a religious belief to be a Mason but you don't need to have a specific religious belief. All I can tell you is that in many of our degrees, we emphasize that your religious belief is something that Masonry will not determine for you. Masonry doesn't say that all religions are paths to salvation because it simply refuses to make that call for its members. You can choose not to trust me on that, but I'm speaking from experience as someone who has participated in pretty much all aspects of Freemasonry with the exception of the Shriners.

Food for thought:
Is Masonry A Cult?

Rick: Food for thought:
Is Masonry A Cult?

IF the information in the link is accurate, Masonry is a cult and incompatible with Christian teachings found in Scripture! Period! One question is, if this is merely a fraternal club of community do-gooders and friendship, then WHAT, pray tell, is of such great secrecy that masons consider blasphemy against God???!!! Notice the contrast with the fraternity of Christ - God's church - ALL of it's covenants, teachings and values are open and transparent for ALL to know, see and read, and follow.

But I doubt most of the old guys in funny hats, marching in parades, are aware of much of this. Or ARE they?