Evidence for God from Science

There's a couple paranormal shows I saw where the medium/sensitive person was told that "They (people) damn themselves". At first I figured it was familiar spirits telling lies contrary to what I'd been lead to believe about predestination. However, the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. And then the same message showed up on a different show or several.

After seeing the testimonies of B.W., Ian McCormack, Howard Storm and Dean Braxton I was convinced that people do damn themselves by their own free choice. Very unpopular message as humans don't like to take responsibility for their actions, especially if their actions have negative consequences for them. The more severe the consequences, the more they don't want admit responsibility.

For the record I've never dabbled or even desired to "investigate" the paranormal. We had a number of incidents at work, some disturbing, that I decided to learn more. Ignorance can be bliss but usually it is deadly.
That's a topic for a separate thread sometime.

There are people who try to water down God's word and they think it makes it more accepting to nonbelievers but it will not even work,it cuts off the Holy Spirit from drawing men to Christ when they water down God's word.There are many people who decided they needed Jesus because they didn't want to go to hell and it still applies to today.

It does these people no good at all to water down God's word by teaching about a hell nobody would be afraid to go to and will convince noone they need to go to Jesus for salvation..I actually think that we do not hear good preaching about hell anymore.It is mostly feel good type sermons but we need good preaching about hell still today.I can't stand watered down sermons and I've always been this way.I've always preferred the preachers that preach the truth of God's word with boldness whether it offends or not.But a lot of times these kind of preachers would be ran off from their church for preaching this way today,it is seen as old fashioned fire and brimstone preaching.



But people need to know the truth about everlasting hell and they can choose not to go there and especially when Jesus made salvation so easy.You really have to ignore the truth about what real hell will be like and be willing to take your chances instead of simply asking Jesus to save you.You have to want to go to hell to make the decision to reject Jesus and the person deserves hell and we should have no sympathy for them.I think that a lot of people prefer a not-so-bad hell because they think about lost family members,etc but God will take care of our sorrow over it and our will should line up with God's will when it comes to hell and who goes there.

Narrow Way To Heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9PAIYF7Ag

abelcainsbrother wrote:There are people who try to water down God's word and they think it makes it more accepting to nonbelievers but it will not even work,it cuts off the Holy Spirit from drawing men to Christ when they water down God's word.There are many people who decided they needed Jesus because they didn't want to go to hell and it still applies to today.

It does these people no good at all to water down God's word by teaching about a hell nobody would be afraid to go to and will convince noone they need to go to Jesus for salvation..I actually think that we do not hear good preaching about hell anymore.It is mostly feel good type sermons but we need good preaching about hell still today.I can't stand watered down sermons and I've always been this way.I've always preferred the preachers that preach the truth of God's word with boldness whether it offends or not.But a lot of times these kind of preachers would be ran off from their church for preaching this way today,it is seen as old fashioned fire and brimstone preaching.



But people need to know the truth about everlasting hell and they can choose not to go there and especially when Jesus made salvation so easy.You really have to ignore the truth about what real hell will be like and be willing to take your chances instead of simply asking Jesus to save you.You have to want to go to hell to make the decision to reject Jesus and the person deserves hell and we should have no sympathy for them.I think that a lot of people prefer a not-so-bad hell because they think about lost family members,etc but God will take care of our sorrow over it and our will should line up with God's will when it comes to hell and who goes there.

Narrow Way To Heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9PAIYF7Ag

You're right.

Storyteller wrote:Okay, read it.

Well, I like that he is trying to tie in science and faith, that`s a good thing, right?

"Billions and billions are going to be tormented in a conscious hell for not believing in somebody they never heard about" Not so sure I agree with this statement. Do we know that those who haven`t heard of Christ are condemned?


It`s funny, when I read Love Wins, I actually liked the book, it got me thinking, changed my view on faith yet reading that article, there is a lot that I don`t agree with. I wonder what I`d make of Love Wins now? Whether I`d still find some stuff in it that I relate to?

'Those who haven't heard of Christ' --- being condemned to hell for eternity. There have Always been believers in this world. There have been people feeling a calling towards a particular area for ministry, so they Go where they feel Led to go and share the Gospel of Salvation to everyone who is willing to hear it. Unfortunately , even upon Hearing about salvation, doesn't mean people Accept salvation for themselves.
God tells us that our sinful nature sends us to hell. Because the 'wages of sin is death'. But God has provided the remedy for that. Jesus Christ Paid the price for our sins. All a person needs to do is recognize their Need and accept God's gift and thank Him for it.
And Forums like this are international -- so that what I and bunches of other people share Here can be read by people all over the world and then shared with others.
I've gone to churches that have active foreign missions programs -- they go out into the bush country and share with those in the 'dark of Africa' -- those people have been waiting to hear -- readily accept Or reject.
The book of Romans, the 1st chapter or two tells us that God makes Himself known through nature -- looking up into the heavens -- We didn't put the stars and planets up there -- Someone Did. Man being so obviously different than the animal world. Not by 'chance' -- a designer did it. And our human body -- all our systems that keep us going. God is showing Himself to us through His handiwork.

crochet1949 wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Okay, read it.

Well, I like that he is trying to tie in science and faith, that`s a good thing, right?

"Billions and billions are going to be tormented in a conscious hell for not believing in somebody they never heard about" Not so sure I agree with this statement. Do we know that those who haven`t heard of Christ are condemned?


It`s funny, when I read Love Wins, I actually liked the book, it got me thinking, changed my view on faith yet reading that article, there is a lot that I don`t agree with. I wonder what I`d make of Love Wins now? Whether I`d still find some stuff in it that I relate to?

'Those who haven't heard of Christ' --- being condemned to hell for eternity. There have Always been believers in this world. There have been people feeling a calling towards a particular area for ministry, so they Go where they feel Led to go and share the Gospel of Salvation to everyone who is willing to hear it. Unfortunately , even upon Hearing about salvation, doesn't mean people Accept salvation for themselves.
God tells us that our sinful nature sends us to hell. Because the 'wages of sin is death'. But God has provided the remedy for that. Jesus Christ Paid the price for our sins. All a person needs to do is recognize their Need and accept God's gift and thank Him for it.
And Forums like this are international -- so that what I and bunches of other people share Here can be read by people all over the world and then shared with others.
I've gone to churches that have active foreign missions programs -- they go out into the bush country and share with those in the 'dark of Africa' -- those people have been waiting to hear -- readily accept Or reject.
The book of Romans, the 1st chapter or two tells us that God makes Himself known through nature -- looking up into the heavens -- We didn't put the stars and planets up there -- Someone Did. Man being so obviously different than the animal world. Not by 'chance' -- a designer did it. And our human body -- all our systems that keep us going. God is showing Himself to us through His handiwork.

ok, just for clarification, because this statement contradicts itself. you say that God says our sinful nature sends us to hell, because the wages of sin is death. so what exactly is the true punishment here? death or burning in hell for eternity? it either has to be one or the other, it cannot be both.

Adam and Eve were meant to live forever in the bodies that God made them with. They were meant to have children - as they did -- and the population would have continued Forever in that sinless environment. But their lack of faith in God's Word - listening to satan instead - brought Physical Death to their / our human body.

What is the true punishment? For the person who accepts God's gift of salvation From spending eternity in hell -- the result is being able to be With God for eternity / ever and ever. No punishment.
For the person who Doesn't --the punishment is enduring hell -- everlasting separation From God - His light / love -- God's Word tells about the lake of fire and brimstone of knashing of teeth of total darkness. An environment that no one wants to exist in Forever. But -- considering it isn't meant for People, only satan and the false prophet and beast -- there's no reason for any People to end up there.

crochet1949 wrote:Adam and Eve were meant to live forever in the bodies that God made them with. They were meant to have children - as they did -- and the population would have continued Forever in that sinless environment. But their lack of faith in God's Word - listening to satan instead - brought Physical Death to their / our human body.

What is the true punishment? For the person who accepts God's gift of salvation From spending eternity in hell -- the result is being able to be With God for eternity / ever and ever. No punishment.
For the person who Doesn't --the punishment is enduring hell -- everlasting separation From God - His light / love -- God's Word tells about the lake of fire and brimstone of knashing of teeth of total darkness. An environment that no one wants to exist in Forever. But -- considering it isn't meant for People, only satan and the false prophet and beast -- there's no reason for any People to end up there.

the punishment you describe here still does not fit with what the bible says. The bible says DEATH is the punishment, not eternal burning in hell or eternal darkness.

Physical death, yes. There are lots of cemeteries with tombstones -- people who have Died. Spiritually we continue living -- physical bodies die / deteriorate.

The believer receives a glorified body just like Jesus Christ had when He rose and ascended back to heaven.

So - that leaves the unsaved person -- what happens to Their body when they face God at the judgement seat and are put into hell/hades. There is the passage in Luke 16:24 -- there is evidence that there will be pain felt "send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." The passage continues to vs 31.

there are a few problems with this though. one is that the bible states very plainly that the SOUL that sins shall die. not the body, but the soul itself. it states this more than one time for clarification. i am not denying that there will be a fire that some will face, however, from what the bible itself says, those who do face this fire will be burned up, turned to ashes, and will be nothing but dust under the soles of those remaining. the other problem is that eternal life is the reward for the saved, while eternal death is the punishment. no where does it say that any unbelievers will be eternally tormented. in luke, the passage you gave, the rich man was facing the fire where he would be turned to ashes, and literally had cotton mouth from fear. why else would he be asking for a mere few drops of water instead of a bucket or 2?

jenna wrote:
...the other problem is that eternal life is the reward for the saved, while eternal death is the punishment...

Where in the Bible is eternal life considered a reward?

I'll give you a hint...it's not.

Eternal life is a gift, not a reward.

RickD wrote:

jenna wrote:
...the other problem is that eternal life is the reward for the saved, while eternal death is the punishment...

Where in the Bible is eternal life considered a reward?

um, John 3:16 is a start...

jenna wrote:

RickD wrote:

jenna wrote:
...the other problem is that eternal life is the reward for the saved, while eternal death is the punishment...

Where in the Bible is eternal life considered a reward?

um, John 3:16 is a start...

It's not a reward. It's an unmerited gift.

You do understand the difference, don't you?

If death (for a non Christian) is just having the lights eternally turned out then to me that doesnt seem like much of a punishment.

RickD wrote:

jenna wrote:

RickD wrote:

jenna wrote:
...the other problem is that eternal life is the reward for the saved, while eternal death is the punishment...

Where in the Bible is eternal life considered a reward?

um, John 3:16 is a start...

It's not a reward. It's an unmerited gift.

You do understand the difference, don't you?

yes i understand the difference, and perhaps you are right on this one. but be that as it may, the girt is not the main subject here, but rather the punishment

Nessa wrote:If death (for a non Christian) is just having the lights eternally turned out then to me that doesnt seem like much of a punishment.

it is a just punishment, because God resurrects them, shows them everything they will never have, and then takes away their life in fire. God is a just God, not a cruel and unusual punishment God.