Evidence for God from Science

edward wrote: Seems like we should at least wait until the bodies are cold to start making jokes..

I think there is a big difference between making fun of a typo and making fun of the actual incident but I guess they are both linked.

Sorry if it seemed inappropriate

Nessa wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:Here's some data about gun violence in the US.

Nessa wrote:Can't say Im familiar with the oregon sootings

I think there is a big difference between making fun if a typo and making fun of the actual incident but I guess they are both linked.

Sorry if it seemed inappropriate

No offense Nessa - you are fogiven

Ed, is using spurious data to make a case...
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#IAMACHRISTIAN: DR. BEN CARSON LIGHTS UP FACEBOOK IN RESPONSE TO OREGON SCHOOL SHOOTING

An eyewitness of Thursday’s shooting at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon said that the killer, named by police as Chris Harper-Mercer, asked students about their faith and executed those who professed to be Christians.

“A gunman singled out Christians, telling them they would see God in ‘one second,’ during a rampage at an Oregon college Thursday that left at least nine innocent people dead and several more wounded, survivors and authorities said,” the New York Post reported.

The Post quoted Stacy Boylen, a woman whose daughter was wounded in the shootings, to detail exactly how the gunman targeted Christians: “[He started] asking people one by one what their religion was. ‘Are you a Christian?’ he would ask them, and if you’re a Christian, stand up. And they would stand up and he said, ‘Good, because you’re a Christian, you are going to see God in just about one second.’ And then he shot and killed them.”

PaulSacramento wrote:http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/World/2015 ... 58046.html

"if you are a Christian, you are going to see God"...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...
Atheists are so inconsistent with their beliefs.

B. W. wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:Here's some data about gun violence in the US

USA Population is around 318 million...

Germany 86 million

Australia 23 million

UK 64 million

Anyone can post stats even spurious ones

More people died in Chicago by illegal guns in the past week and Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws...

http://abc7chicago.com/news/chicago-pol ... s/1011155/

What is really needed is to actually re-establish mental institutions to lock dangerous folks away by Imposition of legal disability as we now have a better mental health screening process if only there was legal teeth to it to lock dangerous folks up before they do harm and get off the PC c#rp about this matter more than taking guns away from law abiding citizens so they cannot defend themselves.
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There seems to be some confusion over how data is calculated and presented.
The data is not spurious but very conclusive and indicative of all the data I have seen.
What per million means statistically is taken on an average basis per capita then broken down to represent the population per million. The sample size is irrelevant. Thats how stats work.
That is how stats look at let's say for example diabetes rates across the world, there could never be credible data if the sizes of the samples were never taken into account. It is broken down in the same fashion then presented as a per numerical number, usually 100,000 or million.

Now people can argue around the laws in America and the correlation with gun related deaths but you cannot argue the stats. It just is what it is.
Surely it's no surprise, I mean we are all pretty smart people. The writing is on the wall, there is a disgracefully and tradegically high incidence of mass shootings in America. Not to mention gun deaths in general.
Since Port Arthur in Australia when our gun laws were completely shaken up and a massive buy back scheme put in place in 11 years there has been not 1 mass shooting.
And contrary to popular belief we are not living as defenceless, trembling citizens who are being targeted by thugs and criminals with no means to defend ourselves.
We live in a safer community.
The stats prove it, so does our headlines.
There is something terribly wrong in American culture, something needs to be done and it goes far beyond screening although it's a damn good start.
It's not a God given right to own a gun. The gun culture is part of the problem.
The bizarre phenomenon of Christians clutching their bibles in one hand and gun in the other is beyond any words that I have and the words I do have I will keep to myself as I will offend beyond what is acceptable and that is not my intention.
I just hope people wake up to themselves and people stop dying in these shocking numbers. Blaming whoever is pulling the trigger is not seeing the bigger picture. Atheists, Arab, Christian.
It doesn't seem to matter statistically, this tradegic phenomena is an American problem that holds no correlation to religion ect. There is something internally wrong.
The question should not be erecting armed security at every public place, movie theatres ect, it is a short term answer to a much bigger problem.
You guys seriously need to let go of your guns and your gun culture and adopt lifesaving ideals that will only benefit future generations.
Australia is a perfect example to dispel all the irrational fear of what will entail if gun laws are completely turned around.
We still have criminals here and mentally unstable people and crime. There is still a black market for guns but the numbers of guns in people's hands is so small that we have very few gun related deaths, statistically per our population.

I've been there, said similar in the past Melanie.
This is one issue that is embedded in American culture, not necessarily "Christians" per se , and it is one which many Aussies just don't get. It's largely considered a human right, an American human right.

I actually saw a poll for whether guns should be allowed in US schools = greater protection.
I thought you'd got to be kidding, but about majority (54%) thought it a good idea. It wasn't a proper poll though, I don't think. But, I'm sure the majority of Americans would see a solution as actually adding more guns into the hands of all, not removing them. It'll make the "bad" guys think twice and then there would be greater protection. Make sense?

Nessa wrote:

edward wrote: Seems like we should at least wait until the bodies are cold to start making jokes..

I think there is a big difference between making fun of a typo and making fun of the actual incident but I guess they are both linked.

Sorry if it seemed inappropriate

Nessa, your joke was about Philip's typo. It wasn't a thoughtless joke about the victims of the shooting. Edward Murphy overreacted.

Kurieuo wrote:I've been there, said similar in the past Melanie.
This is one issue that is embedded in American culture, not necessarily "Christians" per se , and it is one which many Aussies just don't get. It's largely considered a human right, an American human right.

I actually saw a poll for whether guns should be allowed in US schools = greater protection.
I thought you'd got to be kidding, but about majority (54%) thought it a good idea. It wasn't a proper poll though, I don't think. But, I'm sure the majority of Americans would see a solution as actually adding more guns into the hands of all, not removing them. It'll make the "bad" guys think twice and then there would be greater protection. Make sense?

You make some good points K.

While Mel's post seems logical to her in Australia, it's just not logical, if one truly understands how entrenched in American culture, guns really are. Guns and gun protection, literally go back to near the beginning of our Nation.

In America, it's not as simple as it may be in Australia, or somewhere else. It's just not.

K and I were essentially saying the same thing, he just used a lot less sentences
I can see how entrenched it is American culture, that was my point.

Nessa wasn't making light of the situation just pointing out a typo.

melanie wrote:K and I were essentially saying the same thing, he just used a lot less sentences
I can see how entrenched it is American culture, that was my point.

But my point, is that you can't sit there in Australia, and think what may work there, will be able to work here. It's a completely different situation.

It's the same kind of argument that people make in other countries, about universal healthcare.

It's a different situation in the US.

Mel,

You said:

The question should not be erecting armed security at every public place, movie theatres ect, it is a short term answer to a much bigger problem.
You guys seriously need to let go of your guns and your gun culture and adopt lifesaving ideals that will only benefit future generations.
Australia is a perfect example to dispel all the irrational fear of what will entail if gun laws are completely turned around.
We still have criminals here and mentally unstable people and crime. There is still a black market for guns but the numbers of guns in people's hands is so small that we have very few gun related deaths, statistically per our population.

You're sitting there in Australia judging America's culture with regard to guns. And you say that gun laws were completely turned around in Australia, so you Americans need to just do what we did.

And I'm saying it's not that simple.

Here's a good article showing why the Australian confiscation of guns won't work in the US.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/25/the ... l-fallacy/

From the article:

Our challenges were different from America’s. Australia is an even more intensely urban society, with close to 60 percent of our people living in large cities. Our gun lobby isn’t as powerful or well-financed as the National Rifle Association in the United States. Australia, correctly in my view, does not have a Bill of Rights, so our legislatures have more say than America’s over many issues of individual rights, and our courts have less control. Also, we have no constitutional right to bear arms. (After all, the British granted us nationhood peacefully; the United States had to fight for it.)

And:

Leave aside that Australia had—and has—far fewer guns and people than we do. Forget the bits about the gun lobby or Australia’s greater urbanization. The crucial point is the final one: Australia does not have a bill of rights, and that, ultimately, is the reason it was able to confiscate guns. Australians have no constitutional right to bear arms, so seizing their weapons did not violate their constitutional rights. Gun confiscation in the United States would require violating not only the Second Amendment, but the fourth and fifth as well, and possibly even the first. Progressives generally have no compunction about breaching the Second Amendment, but one wonders how many others they would be eager to violate in their quest to nullify the second. Civil war and a tattered Constitution: such are the consequences of invoking “Australia.” It is not a model; it is a mirage.

Again, those in other countries, in which gun ownership has ALWAYS been pretty restricted, have absolutely NO understanding of the unfathomably massive saturation of guns in America. Guns handed down upon generations. Stolen guns - HUGE numbers of gun crimes are committed with stolen weapons. People outside America simply don't seem to understand the enormous supply of guns here - ALL kinds of guns - is unlimited. This means that if you ban ALL guns sales that it won't do anything to keep criminals and insane people from obtaining guns illegally. IF guns sales were ALL illegal, and an insane person or a criminal wanted to buy a gun, then obtaining one would still be easy as pie, simply do to the massive supply and the profit motive of those desiring to illegally sell them.

IF you are for banning all gun purchases and ownership, please tell me:

How law-abiding citizens are to be kept safe if guns were outlawed and subsequently ONLY criminals with violent intent and the insane desired to have them - given the easy illegal ability to get whatever and however many guns one so desires.

Please tell me how you are going to keep such a massive supply (enough for centuries) of very cheap handguns from being obtained by criminals and the unstable?

If you can't answer these questions, then your "ban the guns" rhetoric is meaningless political correctness and entirely emotional and poorly thought out! "Ban the guns" would essentially be putting some feel-good law over people's safety and protection. I simply don't understand how anyone who truly realized the huge and endless gun supply, and who also realizes that criminals and the insane intended murderer would not be stopped one bit by such a ban. And if WE can personally protect ourselves against thugs and maniacs with guns - which are going NOWHERE/which won't change, then WHO/what entity will protect us? Do you not realize there are many neighborhoods in which the cops only contain/try not to unnecessarily enter - because they are far too dangerous! Go to gang-saturated L.A. or Chicago - cops play containment defense - TRY to keep the violence contained.

And, if guns were outlawed, some honest people would be forced to realize the insanity of leaving themselves and their families at the mercy of gun-toting thugs and the insane - meaning, even THEY wouldn't turn their guns in. That is only common sense! Again, look at the murder and gun crime statistics in Chicago - where guns are VERY strictly regulated - why do you think their murder rate is one of the highest in the nation? Thugs there operate with impunity. NO gun law is going to stop them. A drive-by shooting in a poor neighborhood here is big news. Chicago? It's just another day/another murder. Compare Chicago to where I live, where gun crimes (killings/shootings) are pretty rare - and here you can have a concealed carry permit, and family homes all have several guns for protection - so, WHY then, are places with much stricter gun laws far less safe? Hmmmmmmm? Just MAYBE it's because the criminals here have something to fear (people who are armed and WILL shoot back). Often, here (in the country), we don't worry about locking our doors until after dark.

melanie wrote:

B. W. wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:Here's some data about gun violence in the US

USA Population is around 318 million...

Germany 86 million

Australia 23 million

UK 64 million

Anyone can post stats even spurious ones

More people died in Chicago by illegal guns in the past week and Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws...

http://abc7chicago.com/news/chicago-pol ... s/1011155/

What is really needed is to actually re-establish mental institutions to lock dangerous folks away by Imposition of legal disability as we now have a better mental health screening process if only there was legal teeth to it to lock dangerous folks up before they do harm and get off the PC c#rp about this matter more than taking guns away from law abiding citizens so they cannot defend themselves.
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-

There seems to be some confusion over how data is calculated and presented.
The data is not spurious but very conclusive and indicative of all the data I have seen.
What per million means statistically is taken on an average basis per capita then broken down to represent the population per million. The sample size is irrelevant. Thats how stats work.
That is how stats look at let's say for example diabetes rates across the world, there could never be credible data if the sizes of the samples were never taken into account. It is broken down in the same fashion then presented as a per numerical number, usually 100,000 or million.

Now people can argue around the laws in America and the correlation with gun related deaths but you cannot argue the stats. It just is what it is.
Surely it's no surprise, I mean we are all pretty smart people. The writing is on the wall, there is a disgracefully and tradegically high incidence of mass shootings in America. Not to mention gun deaths in general.
Since Port Arthur in Australia when our gun laws were completely shaken up and a massive buy back scheme put in place in 11 years there has been not 1 mass shooting.
And contrary to popular belief we are not living as defenceless, trembling citizens who are being targeted by thugs and criminals with no means to defend ourselves.
We live in a safer community.
The stats prove it, so does our headlines.
There is something terribly wrong in American culture, something needs to be done and it goes far beyond screening although it's a damn good start.
It's not a God given right to own a gun. The gun culture is part of the problem.
The bizarre phenomenon of Christians clutching their bibles in one hand and gun in the other is beyond any words that I have and the words I do have I will keep to myself as I will offend beyond what is acceptable and that is not my intention.
I just hope people wake up to themselves and people stop dying in these shocking numbers. Blaming whoever is pulling the trigger is not seeing the bigger picture. Atheists, Arab, Christian.
It doesn't seem to matter statistically, this tradegic phenomena is an American problem that holds no correlation to religion ect. There is something internally wrong.
The question should not be erecting armed security at every public place, movie theatres ect, it is a short term answer to a much bigger problem.
You guys seriously need to let go of your guns and your gun culture and adopt lifesaving ideals that will only benefit future generations.
Australia is a perfect example to dispel all the irrational fear of what will entail if gun laws are completely turned around.
We still have criminals here and mentally unstable people and crime. There is still a black market for guns but the numbers of guns in people's hands is so small that we have very few gun related deaths, statistically per our population.

You are right Mel, it is how folks interpret the data. The data is not based upon a per capta ratio.

Also folks skew the data too.

Most deaths in the USA is by illegal firearms. With our open southern boarder that is not enforced and the high rate of Drug cartels entering the USA and selling in the inner city areas, these illegal guns enter and a high death rate occurs.

People really desire to decrease in gun deaths in the USA - stop the drug cartels, cement t the southern boarder shut, and go after the cities with the most illegal gun action. Stop the painting law abiding vast majority of legal gun owners as buffoons and sicko's. Stop trying to change the US Constitution to ensure the citizen have no recourse of action when fedral govt turns into a central planning monarchy of governing elitist snobs. That is why we have the 2nd amendment right to bear arms to protect ourselves and to have the government to respectfully fear its people so its people do not have to fear the government.

This something many those outside the USA cannot grasp as they only hear the anti-gun drumbeat from the elitist who hate america who live in the USA and want to fundamentally transform the USA by collapsing its Constitution... without any reason as to why or revealing what they want to transform it into.

Let me again state to those in other countries: The vast-vast-vast!!! majority of Gun owners are law abiding citizens who never do harm to nobody. It is the drug cartels that import and illegally sell firearms that do the majority killing in the USA with - all with illegal guns. The left in this country makes it clear that it does not want to let a good crisis go to waste so they skew the data to war against peaceful folks who own guns and never do any harm to no one for no other reasons than that of their idea of PC total control over the population.

K and Mel and others - Do you really trust your government to really protect you?

Maybe you have a good govt that does, I do not know and would never condemn your countries or the way each govern themselves. Do you have bad corrupt politicians only put for power and control? Maybe you do not, I do not know. Don't condemn America or curse it due to hearing a one sided anti-gun theoretic of the left in the USA...'

Blessings
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B. W. wrote:Ed, is using spurious data to make a case...

I'm not sure how a pile of data on gun violence is spurious in a discussion about gun violence. I'm also not sure how you'd even know, since you didn't read it. Anyway I think you're so blindly committed to your own version of reality that no amount of evidence could ever convince you that you're wrong about any of it.

Long story short, that data was posted so that people other than you could glance it over and maybe think about it a bit. I gave up on you a while back. You're impervious to reason.

Regarding the challenges of dealing with gun violence, I agree, it's an extremely challenging problem to deal with. What I don't accept is the invariable conclusion to that argument, which is that since we can't instantly and completely eradicate gun violence there's no point in trying to do anything at all.