Evidence for God from Science

Mallz wrote:In John 2:24, Jesus was not trusting Himself to 'them'. As He knew all men, he knew 'them'. He was talking about the people in Jerusalem at Passover, and more all 'men'. We are new creations. We are brothers and sisters. I believe He has faith in His brothers and sisters. To not, to me, seems like a logical relational contradiction.

Did he entrust himself to peter when he knew the rooster would crow three times before peter denied him? Was peter a 'new creation'?

You're missing the point, I feel.
Does a potter need to have faith in the clay? Or rather faith in himself to do with the clay whatever he wishes.

God is not a mere human that he is dependant on our abilities to get the job done...to have faith in us...

Again and again God chose the weak in the bible to do stuff...gideon, moses....
Moses questioned Gods 'faith in him' to get the job done.....

What was God's response? 'Who made mouths?' In other words...'Yeah, you can't do it...get over it and go speak, I am with you'

The bible makes it clear - it is all about God's ability and our inability.
Our faith in God, not his faith in us.

We may be God's hands and feet but it's his working through us that enables us to accomplish stuff.

God vividly sees us as we will, ONE day, be, because of what He has done and will do in our lives AND because He knows and can see that we will not permanently resist Him - because He can see us in the future - and that we will have continued to submit ourselves to His power to transform us. Really, it's all because of HIM - A - Z, the ONLY thing we can have are willing/unresistant hearts and minds of faith in Him.

Did he entrust himself to peter when he knew the rooster would crow three times before peter denied him?

What does this have to do with Jesus having personal faith in Peter? (having faith in a mortal being refined doesn't mean an expectation to never sin) He obviously had faith in Peter to start His church and to accomplish on earth what Jesus wanted Him to. His faith in His disciples was played over and over as He trusted them to go out and accomplish for Him while He was still on Earth.

Phillip did a good job of describing the reality of past, present, and future salvation. But no salvation, even from and into eternity couldn't happen if we didn't personally want and choose it.

Does a potter need to have faith in the clay? Or rather faith in himself to do with the clay whatever he wishes.

It's both. Which is why we can have a personal relationship with YHWH and aren't mindless created beings. And He couldn't have faith in what He was molding if what He was molding didn't have faith in Him. Again, it's relational. He can have faith in how He knows we will respond and be towards Him by His molding. How could He not have faith in something He has full control over to mold? Would we not have faith in the essence/function of a clay pot if we were to make it? Sure we would, to be used how we formed to to be used. It doesn't have a choice to be used as it's not sentient, and since it is not, faith is automatic. If it had a brain, it would only do what I wanted if it decided to be in my will. Make sense?

'Yeah, you can't do it...get over it and go speak, I am with you'

A good example of living faith in a living relationship. He wouldn't have told Moses to go if He didn't have faith He would.

It might not be your intention. But your descriptions are making Him sound like an impersonal tyrant..

E.S.

The Creator would not need faith in His creation's existence, whose existence is all inclusive, is what it feels like to me this question comes down to.

Ah... But as He is Existence and we are made up of Himself, fundamentally, having faith in us is having faith in Himself.
Does this mean he has faith in the devil? Well.. faith in knowing his permanently dark heart and that he needs to go outside of Existence. Because He can't have faith in him within Himself (the abomination didn't have faith in Existence). gadreel changed himself to be outside the nature of Existence (..his end. Really he was trying to form Existence in his own image).

Found this article. The author does a better job than I explaining.

http://www.transformourworld.org/en/blo ... ith-in-you

Mallz wrote:E.S.

The Creator would not need faith in His creation's existence, whose existence is all inclusive, is what it feels like to me this question comes down to.

Ah... But as He is Existence and we are made up of Himself, fundamentally, having faith in us is having faith in Himself.
Does this mean he has faith in the devil? Well.. faith in knowing his permanently dark heart and that he needs to go outside of Existence. Because He can't have faith in him within Himself (the abomination didn't have faith in Existence). gadreel changed himself to be outside the nature of Existence (..his end. Really he was trying to form Existence in his own image).

"We are made up of Himself"?

That sounds like new age mumbo jumbo. All is God and God is all.

And who is gadreel? Can't remember reading about him/her in scripture.

The world says 'believe in yourself, you can do it!
God says 'believe in me because you can't do it'

We are utterly reliant on God and his ability.
If you don't think so, try taking your next breath without him.

We cant even do that much.


http://www.charismamag.com/life/women/9 ... ts-out-god

Ah... But as He is Existence and we are made up of Himself, fundamentally, having faith in us is having faith in Himself.
Does this mean he has faith in the devil? Well.. faith in knowing his permanently dark heart and that he needs to go outside of Existence. Because He can't have faith in him within Himself (the abomination didn't have faith in Existence). gadreel changed himself to be outside the nature of Existence (..his end. Really he was trying to form Existence in his own image).

I love you brother, you know I do ... but ... ... I'm more than a little lost here. Omniscience requires no inner faith, it is complete, as is God, He does not need faith in Himself, right ? ... Help me... Gadreel, as in the angel who guards the Garden ? .. I'm just not correlating your response to mine ...

Mallz: Phillip did a good job of describing the reality of past, present, and future salvation. But no salvation, even from and into eternity couldn't happen if we didn't personally want and choose it.

Well, God COULD have chosen FOR us whether or not we would ever love Him. But this He will never do. It's why He gave us and respects our freewill decisions with respect to whether we receieve or reject Him and all He wants to do in our lives, in both here and eternity. He wants us, with all His help we're willing to accept, to freely love and desire Him. But, we DON'T get to choose the CONSEQUENCES of rejecting Him. If anyone truly understood all that He offers us, the incredible and costly Sacrifice He's provided us (HIMSELF on the Cross), eternal love, guidance and bliss - it's virtually inconceiveable that they would, instead, rather worship self.

Mallz wrote:

Did he entrust himself to peter when he knew the rooster would crow three times before peter denied him?

What does this have to do with Jesus having personal faith in Peter? (having faith in a mortal being refined doesn't mean an expectation to never sin) He obviously had faith in Peter to start His church and to accomplish on earth what Jesus wanted Him to. His faith in His disciples was played over and over as He trusted them to go out and accomplish for Him while He was still on Earth.

Phillip did a good job of describing the reality of past, present, and future salvation. But no salvation, even from and into eternity couldn't happen if we didn't personally want and choose it.

Does a potter need to have faith in the clay? Or rather faith in himself to do with the clay whatever he wishes.

It's both. Which is why we can have a personal relationship with YHWH and aren't mindless created beings. And He couldn't have faith in what He was molding if what He was molding didn't have faith in Him. Again, it's relational. He can have faith in how He knows we will respond and be towards Him by His molding. How could He not have faith in something He has full control over to mold? Would we not have faith in the essence/function of a clay pot if we were to make it? Sure we would, to be used how we formed to to be used. It doesn't have a choice to be used as it's not sentient, and since it is not, faith is automatic. If it had a brain, it would only do what I wanted if it decided to be in my will. Make sense?

'Yeah, you can't do it...get over it and go speak, I am with you'

A good example of living faith in a living relationship. He wouldn't have told Moses to go if He didn't have faith He would.

It might not be your intention. But your descriptions are making Him sound like an impersonal tyrant..

I dont believe God entrusts himself to any human - Peter or anyone else.
It was in relation to the John 2:24 scripture I mentioned previously

I dont believe God has a "personal faith" in us. Not in the way we have faith in each other and in God.

As for your article....

When I read the words 'God has faith in you!' Joel Osteen comes to mind.
The battle belongs to the Lord. Not Gideon as I feel that article kinda hinted at in some ways.

I sorta see Gideon like a toddler that is wheeling a huge wheelbarrow around cos hes holding the handles. But the dad is right there behind him holding the handles too. Guess which one of them is really pushing it?

God reduced the army a few times so he would get the credit alone.
How far would have Gideon got without God? Even him being a mighty warrior was
all about Gods ability in the face of his inability. God can make any one of us a mighty warrior.
God had to let him over hear the dream the enemy were talking about to give him courage to get the job done. It was God all the way.

There was a lot of emphasis on gideons capabilities...even the first personal example given in the article was about a 8year old doing something 'all by himself' and having victory....thats the world's way of real victory..not God's.

God refers to himself as the potter and to us as the clay to describe his position and ours. It may be impersonal but I guess God saw fit to use it

Of course our relationship with God IS personal. But we relate to each other differently.
We need to know our place.

Do you really think my words made God sound like a tyrant? Have you read some of the things he said in the OT? How I paraphased him was pretty mild. I call it tough love.

God has faith only in himself and fashioned humanity to be able to respond in faith to Himself.

I actually find that it is liberating to know God does not have faith in us during this mortal life.

Sounds at first counterproductive, doesn't it?

As I look around the world and in the modern church and even at myself, why should He believe in us after all the damage we often cause in his name?

However, He has faith to change us and gave his word on this. As we learn to become Christ like in actions and character thru our failures, a love for God develops within us that causes our faith to grow toward Him because we learn that He is Faithful to Himself to not let us go. It is as though God is growing us into becoming citizens of heaven and there in heaven signed, sealed, transformed by the blood of Jesus, is where He can finally have faith in us because we learned in mortal life first to have faith in Him that will not betray, manipulate, and misuse His Love ever again.

God is the only faithful one... in that, he can change us without us getting in the way in this mortal life!

In this mortal life, the old sin nature is present and it will betray, manipulate, and misuse His Love to justify ourselves in our own eyes that all is well. As Christians during this mortal life, the sin nature shrinks and its grip lessens as we learn to have faith in Him who is faithful to change us, even when this change is painful, uncomfortable, and oft consists of great battle. So I am glad, that during this mortal life God has no faith in humanity because that allows His faithfulness to change us shine through conquering a rebellious soul to become agents of his faithfulness displayed.

It is sad that in the modern church world we no longer consider the depths of our sins and are rarely taught what it means to live a repentant life according to a mind that has being changed by the Holy Spirit in residence. Instead, we are taught a steady stream of pop/modern psychology interlaced with biblical themes, lessons, phrases, promises tossed in through snake oil salesmanship that pets our peeves and justifies our do nothingness. Yes, we will battle sins till we head home to heaven but did we learn faith in God's faithfulness to Himself first and foremost that guides his faithfulness not to let us go? Have we learned through it all to love God because he first loved us and proved it upon the cross and resurrection?

God is in the business of rebuilding our faith in Himself first and from there the proof is in the pudding as they say...
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It is sad that in the modern church world we no longer consider the depths of our sins and are rarely taught what it means to live a repentant life according to a mind that has being changed by the Holy Spirit in residence.

I have a very strong sense of how absolutely dripping with sin I am. So much so, that sometimes, when I wonder how I could ever be saved ("God am I TRULY saved?"), as I measure up so poorly to God's standards - even, often, to my own standards. And yet, in such moments, I have to stop and remind myself that I - in fact NO one can - EVER be qood enough/can't WORK my way in (it's IMPOSSIBLE) to enter God's House except through the Jesus' lifeline provided by the Cross, accepted and embraced through faith. I must live in faith of God's grace and promises that He Who began this good work in me is the ONLY One that my eternal future can depend upon. And so, once I remember, once again, that my salvation isn't dependent upon ANYTHING I can do, should do or even DID do, but that it's something I, long ago, came to within - that is, in my heart and mind, I truly believed what the Bible says about Jesus AND committed myself to following and obeying Him, to best of my ability - but FAR more importantly - to seek growth as HE guides and molds me with His Spirit. I have ZERO power myself, ultimately, ZERO faith in myself, as I realize what my humanness truly means, spiritually - it means we ALL massively miss God's standards - and will continue to until THAT incredible day all Believers in Christ are transformed. It's not on ME, never was! Whew!!! How grateful I am for that!!!

Hey, ya'll I'm back :p Let's see..

RickD
"We are made up of Himself"?

Yes. How could anything exist without Him sustaining it? Everything comes from Him and is a part of Him (where does He get it? Himself). Something can't come come nothing. Everything we know, is stemming from and sustained by Him (and much we don't). There is no such thing as 'outside' Elohim. Which is why we are made up of Him, breath Him, eat Him, etc.

And who is gadreel

This is only relevant if you believe the book of Enoch, sorry shouldn't have 'said' it. I was fast replying. he is satan.

Nessa
We are utterly reliant on God and his ability.
If you don't think so, try taking your next breath without him.

Agreed, wasn't saying anything to the contrary.

E.S.
I love you brother, you know I do ... but ... ... I'm more than a little lost here. Omniscience requires no inner faith, it is complete, as is God, He does not need faith in Himself, right ? ... Help me... Gadreel, as in the angel who guards the Garden ? .. I'm just not correlating your response to mine ...

He naturally Has faith in Himself. It's not added or comes from anywhere else. I don't see how He couldn't have faith in Himself..? gadreel is satan (relate to response to RickD). Specifically you're looking for: http://neno.co.ke/bible/book/Book%20of%20Enoch/69/6. I'm totally open to being wrong of his name and don't base my theology on this book. Again, I should have not said anything here.

I dont believe God entrusts himself to any human - Peter or anyone else.

Agreed

I dont believe God has a "personal faith" in us. Not in the way we have faith in each other and in God.

Disagreed to an extent :p

I'm not saying Elohim has the faith in us that He has in Himself, it's not a potential. His faith in us is because we choose to be in His will and is proportionate to the relationship. Not the being. He works good through/with us proportionate to our relationship with Him.
With Gideon, yes He needed YHWH to do what He did. But Gideon wouldn't have been chosen if Gideon didn't already choose Him and wasn't prepared by YWHW to be who he is from eternity and onward. YHWH had faith in Gideon to do what He wanted because He knew he would by how He molded him (and knew the right words/situation of revelation, etc to all time in Gideons life to move him on His path).

Do you really think my words made God sound like a tyrant? Have you read some of the things he said in the OT? How I paraphased him was pretty mild. I call it tough love.

I'm intimately familiar with Him. What I'm saying isn't being seen. I'm not sure how to explain it a different way.. sry Nessa

B.W.
I actually find that it is liberating to know God does not have faith in us during this mortal life.

B.W., He doesn't view us as mortals. He doesn't view or work with us based on who we are presently mortally and how we view ourselves. He views our future selves. We have the Holy Spirit dwelling and working in us. We will never be separated from Him. He can view us as our future selves only because of Jesus Christ. We already are overcomers, conquerors in Christ and through Him. And that is how we are viewed. Unbelievers don't have the Holy Spirit and are the walking dead. There is no faith there and can't be. But us, those who choose and were chosen, are able to accomplish great things for Him as He works in us. He has faith in who and what we are choosing to be (since He is in us and is a part of us)

I don't look at myself as a citizen of this world. Nor hold myself back from my old nature. Like the Trinity, our relationship to/with/in/whatever Him, is relational. And we are not looked upon as mortal beings, but a new creation waiting to be glorified.