Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:Been holding off for a bit on responding to this topic as there very good postings here.

Let's have a little bit of Greek lesson here. Greek New Testament reads:

1 Co 13:5 ουκ ασχημονει ου ζητει τα εαυτης ου παροξυνεται ου λογιζεται το κακον
1 Co 13:6 ου χαιρει επι τη αδικια συγχαιρει δε τη αληθεια

English versions translations follow these two primary renderings:

1Co 13:5-6 NKJV, (Love/agape) does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth...

1Co 13:5-6 ESV (Love/agape) or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. ESV

The question that arises on this thread is that Agape will never act provoked or think evil based on the English. Which translation best captures the Greek meaning from the Text is the ESV.

In fact, in verse five the word translated provoke is from the Greek word paroxúnō which means too: sharp, incite, irritate, to sharpen or whet as in to deliberately stir up people as the Proverbial fool does Proverbs 10:18 and Proverbs 18:2,6,7.

It has more to do with one who with devious motives, stirs the pot to gets one way by means of manipulation. Agape love does not do that. Agape love does indeed become provoked and wrathful at wrong doing, abuse, neglect, harm, false teaching, etc and will act with force to protect the weak, etc... Being not provoked has nothing to do with pacifism at all and the Greek words, grammar, and tenses stress this in the text and in verse 6 - does not rejoice in wrongdoing/iniquity...

The phrase thinks no evil is also clarified in the Greek text as well too. The word translated as evil is kakós which means: worthless externally, cowardly, retreat in battle and in the moral sense one whose character is vicious, bad in heart, conduct, one who delights getting others in trouble and slanders undermines, sows discord, etc...

Those guided by God's agape do not act with kakós which means they do not act cowardly, retreat in battle, due to bad character...

So in essence Agape love does not run away from a battle in which evil threatens and let's evil win.

Now look at Verse 6 Agape - does not rejoice in iniquity. The word iniquity in the text in the Greek is adikía and it means: injustice, what is not conformable with justice, what ought not to be, that which is wrong. That which is out of harmony with díkē - righteousness, what is right, fit. This word means injustice...over wrongdoing(s)...

Agape - does not rejoice in iniquity (injustice/wrongdoing). In other words, Agape Love does not rejoice praise or condone injustice and wrongdoing...

I hope this helps clarify that the bible does not teach Christian to be milk toast but rather know the time when to be what, how, and when as Eccl 3:1-8 teaches by the Holy Spirit within.

Some folks inset human orientation into the definition of agape and wrongly conclude that God will never act harshly toward anyone because he is so lovingly agape filled by using 1 Cor 13:1-13 to back up that claim. Fact is, Revelation does not present this as fact and neither does the Apostles Paul, Peter, James, or even Jesus. Jesus warned against those that hurt a little child in the harshest of terms and that folks that reject his free offer of salvation will suffer a rejection / bansihment away from God forever in a terrible place reaping what they have sown.

Agape love is not for wimps nor does Agape love make wimps for Christ either!

Agape love also has been limited over time to mean tolerant, unconditional, wishy washy, and as dainty as a pansy.

The actually meaning of Agape form Greek and Hebrew follows along this definition: A Love that cherishes, edifies, trains, equips, rebukes, chastises so as to teach right from wrong, will not let you go. It has everything to do with teaching and instructing, protecting, helping, and protecting, cherishing, building one up, and even laying down your life for the ones loved, as well as casting away what is foul, evil, debased that uses apape as the means to get its own way. all without conditions... it is either changed by agape or remain unchanged - no conditions because agape reveals the heart by truth... freely to all...

No, Agape is not for wimps...

Ephesians 6:10 states this: Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. ESV

It does not say Finally, be passive in the Lord and in lack of his might...

God's agape would never say that to us ... instead it will cherish, train us, rebuke us, guide us, never let us go... for us to become strong in him and the power of his might! That is agape...
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Nessa wrote:...If you were in the middle of witnessing to someone and they said they will kill you, what would you say/do?

Nessa wrote:If i give you a gift, I can give it unconditionally, regardless of your response. You may, however, throw it in the trash.

While we were STILL sinners he loved us and died for us. That is the whole point. He didnt wait until we deserved it. He didnt wait until we checked all the tick boxes....

I agree to follow Jesus....YES/NO please circle your answer...

You can't seperate the unconditional act from the unconditional love.
The bible clearly says God died for all cos He loved all....not God died only for those who will choose him and will love him back.

Vines Expository Dictionary of the NT

Love/Agape/Agapao (Noun and Verb)

A. Verbs.
1. agapao (G25) and the corresponding noun agape (B, No. 1 below) present "the characteristic word of Christianity, and since the Spirit of revelation has used it to express ideas previously unknown, inquiry into its use, whether in Greek literature or in the Septuagint, throws but little light upon its distinctive meaning in the NT. Cf, however, Lev19:18; Deu6:5.

"Agape and agapao are used in the NT (a) to describe the attitude of God toward His Son, Joh17:26; the human race, generally, Joh3:16; Rom5:8, and to such as believe on the Lord Jesus Christ particularly Joh14:21; (b) to convey His wiil to His children concerning their attitude one toward another, Joh13:34, and toward all men, 1Th3:12; 1Co16:14; 2Pe1:7; (c) to express the essential nature of God, 1Jo4:8.

"Love can be known only from the actions it prompts. God's love is seen in the gift of His Son, 1John 4:9, 1John 4:10. But obviously this is not the love of complacency, or affection, that is, it was not drawn out by any excellency in its objects, Rom5:8. It was an exercise of the divine will in deliberate choice, made without assignable cause save that which lies in the nature of God Himself, Cf. Deut 7:7, Deut 7:8.

"Love had its perfect expression among men in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2Co5:14; Eph2:4; Eph3:19; Eph5:2; Christian love is the fruit of His Spirit in the Christian, Gal5:22.

"Christian love has God for its primary object, and expresses itself first of all in implicit obedience to His commandments, Joh14:15, Joh14:21, Joh14:23; Joh15:10; 1John 2:5; 1John 5:3; 2John1:6. Selfwill, that is, self-pleasing, is the negation of love to God.

"Christian love, whether exercised toward the brethren, or toward men generally, is not an impulse from the feelings, it does not always run with the natural inclinations, nor does it spend itself only upon those for whom some affinity is discovered. Love seeks the welfare of all, Rom15:2, and works no ill to any, Rom13:8-10; love seeks opportunity to do good to 'all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith,' Gal6:10. See further 1 Corinthians 13 and Col3:12-14."*

* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 105.

In respect of agapao as used of God, it expresses the deep and constant "love" and interest of a perfect Being towards entirely unworthy objects, producing and fostering a reverential "love" in them towards the Giver, and a practical "love" towards those who are partakers of the same, and a desire to help others to seek the Giver. See BELOVED.

AMG's The Complete Word Study Dictionary

G26 Apape

ἀγάπη
agápē; gen. agápēs, fem. noun from agapáō (G25), to love. Love, affectionate regard, goodwill, benevolence. With reference to God's love, it is God's willful direction toward man. It involves God doing what He knows is best for man and not necessarily what man desires. For example, John 3:16 states, "For God so loved [ēgápēsen] the world, that he gave." What did He give? Not what man wanted, but what God knew man needed, i.e., His Son to bring forgiveness to man.

G25

ἀγαπάω
agapáō; contracted agapṓ, fut. agapḗsō. To esteem, love, indicating a direction of the will and finding one's joy in something or someone. It differs from philéō (G5368), to love, indicating feelings, warm affection, the kind of love expressed by a kiss (phílēma [G5370]).

(I) To love, to regard with strong affection (Luk7:42; Joh3:35; Joh8:42; Joh21:15; 2Co9:7; Rev3:9; Sept.: Gen24:67; Rth4:15). With the acc. of the corresponding noun, "his great love wherewith he loved us" (Eph2:4 [cf. 2Sa13:15]). Perf. pass. part. ēgapēménos, beloved (Eph1:6; Col3:12).

(II) As referring to superiors and including the idea of duty, respect, veneration, meaning to love and serve with fidelity (Mat6:24; Mat22:37; Mar12:30, Mar12:33; Luk16:13; Rom8:28; Sept.: 1Sa18:16). The pres. act. part. used substantively of those loving the Lord, meaning faithful disciples or followers of the Lord (Eph6:24; Jas1:12; Jas2:5; Sept.: Exo20:6; Deu5:10).

(III) To love, i.e., to regard with favor, goodwill, benevolence (Mar10:21; Luk7:5; Joh10:17). In other passages the effects of benevolence are expressed as to wish well to or do good to. To love one's neighbor, one's enemies (Mat5:43; Mat19:19; Mat22:39; Luk6:32). The fut. imper., agapḗseis, especially in regard to one's enemies, should not necessarily be taken to mean doing that which will please them, but choosing to show them favor and goodwill (Mat5:43-44). One should realize the need of people to be changed through Christ's grace, and do everything possible to bring them to a knowledge of the Lord. This may involve expressions of benevolence or even discipline and punishment, all as the outworking of this love. In 2Co12:15 it means, "even if, having conferred greater benefits on you, I receive less from you" (a.t.).

(IV) Spoken of things, to love, i.e., to delight in (Luk11:43; Joh3:19; Heb1:9; 1Jn2:15). The expression "not to love" means to neglect, disregard, condemn (Rev12:11, meaning they condemned their lives even unto death, i.e., they willingly exposed themselves to death). Other references: Mat5:44, Mat5:46; Mar12:31; Luk6:27, Luk6:35; Luk7:47; Luk10:27; Joh3:16; Joh11:5; Joh12:43; Joh13:1, Joh13:23, Joh13:34; Joh14:15, Joh14:21, Joh14:23-24, Joh14:28, Joh14:31; Joh15:9, Joh15:12, Joh15:17; Joh17:23-24, Joh17:26; Joh19:26; Joh21:7, Joh21:16, Joh21:20; Rom8:37; Rom9:13, Rom9:25; Rom13:8-9; 1Co2:9; 1Co8:3; 2Co11:11; Gal2:20; Gal5:14; Eph5:2, Eph5:25, Eph5:28, Eph5:33; Col3:19; 1Th1:4; 1Th4:9; 2Th2:13, 2Th2:16; 2Ti4:8, 2Ti4:10; Heb12:6; Jas2:8; 1Pe1:8, 1Pe1:22; 1Pe2:17; 1Pe3:10; 2Pe2:15; 1Jn2:10; 1Jn3:10-11, 1Jn3:14, 1Jn3:18, 1Jn3:23; 1Jn4:7-8, 1Jn4:10-12, 1Jn4:19-21; 1Jn5:1-2; Rev1:5; Rev20:9.

(V) Contrast with philéō (G5368), to be content with, denoting common interests, hence to befriend. Most scholars agree that agapáō is used of God's love toward man and vice versa, but philéō is rarely used by God of the love of men toward Him. In Joh21:15-16, it is a statement by Peter to Jesus and in verse seventeen it is only a question by Jesus to Peter. In verses fifteen and sixteen while Jesus was asking Peter, Agapás me? "Do you love me?" (a.t.)

Peter was answering, Philṓ se, "I am your friend" (a.t.). In verse seventeen for the third time Jesus asked Peter, but this time He said, Phileís me?, "Are you my friend?" (a.t.). Jesus indeed makes us His friends in His great condescension, but for us to call ourselves His friends is somewhat of a presumption.

In the first question of Jesus to Peter in Joh21:15, there is the comparison of love (agápē) toward Himself versus love toward material things, possibly the fish and bread which all were eating. The expression "more than these" may very well refer to the love of the other disciples present (Joh21:2).

Jesus was asking whether Peter's love was greater than that of the other disciples. In this question of Jesus to Peter in Joh21:15 there is also the comparison of love (agápē) toward Himself versus the love of the other disciples present (Joh21:2). Again Jesus was asking whether Peter's love was greater than that of the other disciples. Peter in his answer used the expression sú oídas hóti philṓ se, "thou knowest [oída (G1492), to know intuitively] that I am your friend [philéo (G5368)]" (a.t.).

That was an upgrading by Peter of his devotion to Christ. The Lord, however, intuitively knew that Peter had not accepted His determination to die while He could avoid death (Mat16:22-23). Not only did Peter not acknowledge Jesus as his friend, but denied that he even knew Him (Mat26:69-75), even as Jesus had predicted Peter would (Mat26:31-35). The Lord did not accept Peter's self- upgraded love from agápē (G26) to philía (G5373), friendship. We love (agapáō) God because He first loved us (1Jn4:10). But none of us, especially Peter, earn the right to declare ourselves friends (phílos [G5384]) of God. He alone can declare us as such, even as He did Abraham (Jas2:23).

The second question Jesus asked Peter was not the same as the first. It was not a question of comparison. He did not ask Peter, "Do you love [agapáō] me more than these?" but simply "Do you love me [agapáō]?" (author's translations). The Lord would be pleased with a personal statement of reciprocation of His love without a comparison of oneself to others. Jesus, being God incarnate, has intuitive knowledge of each one of His children.

Thus the Lord would not accept Peter's confession of personal attachment to Himself as that of friendship. Jesus intuitively knew that Peter was not always His devoted friend, for He knew that Peter would deny Him. Some have suggested that in this passage Christ was providing an opportunity for Peter to "redeem" himself from the earlier denial of the Lord.

The third question of Jesus to Peter was different, "Do you love me [philéō, Are you my friend]?" (a.t.). Are your interests, now that you have seen Me risen from the dead, different than before the resurrection? Peter became sorrowful because he understood the deeper meaning of Jesus' question (Joh21:17). His answer utilized two similar, but distinct verbs, oída, to know intuitively, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know experientially: "Lord, thou knowest, [oídas, intuitively] all things. Thou knowest [gínṓskeis, know experientially] that I love thee [philṓ, that I am now your friend]." When it comes to the expression of the love of the Father God to the Son God, both verbs, agapáō and philéō, are used. Joh3:35 states, "The Father loveth [agapá] the Son and hath given all things into his hand." In Joh5:20 we read, "For the Father loveth [phileí] the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth."

Agapáō and never philéō is used of love toward our enemies. The range of philéō is wider than that of agapáō which stands higher than philéō because of its moral import, i.e., love that expresses compassion. We are thus commanded to love (agapáō) our enemies, to do what is necessary to turn them to Christ, but never to befriend them (philéō) by adopting their interests and becoming friends on their level.

Deriv.: agápē (G26), love; agapētós (G27), beloved, dear.

Syn.: philéō (G5368), to befriend, love.
Ant.: miséō (G3404), to hate.

Nessa wrote:are you saying we arent to befriend non christians? I must be reading wrong.

So you are saying theres a difference between underserved love and
unconditional love?

Thanks for sharing about yourself, I like knowing who people are....and you are humble which I really like

AMG's The Complete Word Study Dictionary

G26 Apape

ἀγάπη
agápē; gen. agápēs, fem. noun from agapáō (G25), to love. Love, affectionate regard, goodwill, benevolence. With reference to God's love, it is God's willful direction toward man. It involves God doing what He knows is best for man and not necessarily what man desires. For example, John 3:16 states, "For God so loved [ēgápēsen] the world, that he gave." What did He give? Not what man wanted, but what God knew man needed, i.e., His Son to bring forgiveness to man.

G25

ἀγαπάω
agapáō; contracted agapṓ, fut. agapḗsō.

(II) As referring to superiors and including the idea of duty, respect, veneration, meaning to love and serve with fidelity (Mat6:24; Mat22:37; Mar12:30, Mar12:33; Luk16:13; Rom8:28; Sept.: 1Sa18:16). The pres. act. part. used substantively of those loving the Lord, meaning faithful disciples or followers of the Lord (Eph6:24; Jas1:12; Jas2:5; Sept.: Exo20:6; Deut 5:10).

B. W. wrote:
Yes, you are reading me wrong... as I was you.

Undeserved love is quite different than unconditional...

Read John 3:15,16,36 and let me know if you see the difference.

Next, again befriending or having non-Christian friends is different that them having you become like just them.

Do you see the difference?
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Nessa wrote:...You said not to.become friends with enemies on 'their level'..what does that mean exactly?

If you love someone when.they havent earned it, then you are loving them regardless of their actions...loving someone.regardless of their action means the love is unconditional.