Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:OK, HOW high the water might have come is speculation.

If that is the case would you agree with my assertion that there is nothing in Scripture to support an altitude of 12,000 feet?
Which means that a height of 12,000 feet is not where Scripture says the ark came to rest.

But one thing is wrong with your figures. It's not mere height above sea level we're talking about, but the differential between the Alluvial Plain (1,000 meters/3280 feet) and the site location (about 12,000 feet). This means that the site is not over two miles high, but rather approximately 8,720 feet, or 1.65 miles over the PLAIN.

Which is still unsupported by Scripture, history, archaeology, and science.

In fact Rich Deem's article has the following observation which drives this point home even further.

If the ark had come to rest on the top of Mount Ararat, this would be at 17,000 foot elevation. Olive trees (and every other tree) do not grow at 17,000 feet. In fact, you will not find olive trees growing much above 5,000 feet. Therefore, we know from the Bible that the ark did not come to rest on or near the top of Mount Ararat, but probably somewhere on the foothills of the mountain.

Rich's observation above shows that 12,000 feet is far above the upper altitude limit that is indicated by Scripture itself.

12,000 feet is not only unsupported by Scripture, Rich shows that 12,000 feet is actually contradicted by Scripture.

In Christ

Genesis 7: 19- 20 or so " And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heavens were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward and the mountains were covered."

So - how high is 15 cubits?

crochet1949 wrote:Genesis 7: 19- 20 or so " And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heavens were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward and the mountains were covered."

So - how high is 15 cubits?

Oh... about 20 feet...
Which I think we would both agree is significantly less than 12,000 feet.

From Rich Deem's article at our home site "The Genesis Flood: Why the Bible Says It Must Be Local"
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html

Does the Genesis text indicate that the flood was local? If you read it carefully, you can determine that the perspective is local. Most English translations are actually interpretations that are intentionally skewed to favor a global flood interpretation. For example, Genesis 7:20 is usually translated as:

The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. (Genesis 7:20)

In reality, the Hebrew word ma‛al, translated "higher" really means "upward." So, in essence, the text is saying that the flood was 15 cubits (20 feet) deep, in total, not 15 cubits above the mountains. In addition, the Hebrew word har really refers most often to hills rather than mountains...

... Didn't the flood cover the highest mountains? The Hebrew word "har," translated "mountains," occurs 649 times in the Old Testament. In 212 instances, the word is translated "hill" or "hills" or "hill country". In Genesis, it is translated "hill" in 10 out of 19 occurrences. Of course, 4 out of 9 times that it is translated as "mountain" is in the flood passage (the translators were wearing their global glasses when they did that translation!). In every instance in Genesis, the text could be translated "hill". Since no specific mountain range is mentioned in this verse, it is likely that the word refers to the hills that Noah could see.

In Christ

crochet1949 wrote:Genesis 7: 19- 20 or so " And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heavens were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward and the mountains were covered."

So - how high is 15 cubits?

The preflood mountains weren't as high as the ones that exist today.

You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.
(Psalm 104:6-9 ESV)

After the flood parts of the earth rose up to form the continents and islands that exist today.

Theophilus: The preflood mountains weren't as high as the ones that exist today.

You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.
(Psalm 104:6-9 ESV)



After the flood parts of the earth rose up to form the continents and islands that exist today.

Theophilus, the problem with applying this passage to the flood is that it references the Creation event, God placing the earth on it's foundations, it may well be also that it is speaking to that series of events. You cannot simply assume that it's speaking of the flood of Noah. Also, when it references "so that they might not again cover the earth," IF Noah's was a regional flood (to the extent of which man, at the time, had spread - the parameters surrounding humanity of the day, then this verse could still be true because it is speaking of water, in the beginning, when it covered the ENTIRE earth as God hovered over them.

See what Reasons.org thinks: http://www.reasons.org/articles/explori ... s-part-two

theophilus wrote: The preflood mountains weren't as high as the ones that exist today.
After the flood parts of the earth rose up to form the continents and islands that exist today.

Of course these assertions are totally unsupported by Scripture, history, archaeology, and science.

According to Scripture the earth rose up to form the continents and islands on "Day 3" of Creation in Genesis 1:9-10

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

As Philip points out, Psalm 104:1-9 is referring to Creation, not the Flood.
Rich Deem has an excellent article on this topic at our home site

Psalm 104:9 - Does it refer to the Original Creation or the Flood?
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/psalm104.html

He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.
(Psalm 104:5-9 ESV)

The first sentence describes the creation. The next sentence, "You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains", tells us that flood that took place after the creation. The next three describe how the flood ended.

The first sentence describes the creation. The next sentence, "You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains", tells us that flood that took place after the creation. The next three describe how the flood ended.

Another cherrypicking, finger-licking good text proofing, conveniently applied but not necessarily accurately assessed. And I sometimes see this on both sides of the YEC/oec aisle.

Hugh Ross and RTB also sometimes conveniently adapt certain verses as proof of some scientific assertion - and this has happened with Scripture that is very unlikely to be referencing some scientific precept. But they'll use it, regardless. Sometimes this has happened due to a lack of theological traning. It's sometimes a bit like trying to assemble a large, multi-piece puzzle in which you find a few pieces that ALMOST look like they can be plugged into a given spot, but as they perhaps awkwardly fit or were forced into place, one might assume that it's not a matter of using the wrong piece, but rather that piece has a minor manufacturing defect, whether in color or shape. But nonetheless, you cram it in there so as to complete the puzzle. Close enough, eh? Especially if you are convinced you have correctly assembled it. After all, you have the picture of the completed puzzle already in your head - er, rather on the box top.

theophilus wrote:He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.
(Psalm 104:5-9 ESV)

The first sentence describes the creation. The next sentence, "You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains", tells us that flood that took place after the creation. The next three describe how the flood ended.

Psalm 104:6 is not talking about Noah's Flood... or any flood for that matter

You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.

This verse tells us that the whole earth was covered by water before God made the land appear in Genesis 1:9.

At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.

Psalm 104:7-8 is describing the events of Genesis 1:9

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

So when did God settle the mountains and when did God set the boundaries of the waters?
During Creation or after the Flood?

Well, fortunately for us Scripture answers that question pretty explicitly.
Proverbs 8:22-29

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 “From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 “Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;

The Proverbs 8 Creation account explicitly associates both of these events with Creation... not the Flood.
1. Settling the mountains - Psalm 104:8, Proverbs 8:25
2. Setting the boundaries for the sea - Psalm 104:9, Proverbs 8:29

To summarize...
The Proverbs 8 Creation account confirms that the events described in Psalm 104:1-9 refer to Creation... not the Flood
Which means that the following two assertions are contradicted by Scripture.

The preflood mountains weren't as high as the ones that exist today.
After the flood parts of the earth rose up to form the continents and islands that exist today.

In Christ