"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Philip wrote: After the game is OVER, and AS LONG AS the prayer audience is only those invited to and thus join in VOLUNTARILY, I truly do not see the problem.
So, those going to these prayers are all little kids who have to be handed over to their mommies and daddies? Bullcrap! As soon as a game is over and the team is DISMISSED, that is when the coach's responsibilities end! NO coach is responsible for seeing that the kids all get picked up by their parents - not in high school. Those kids that attended those prayers did so voluntarily!Edward: After the game is over a high school coach still has supervisory responsibilities. He's on the clock until the last kid is released to his parents.
Philip wrote: And what about those who might be immensely offended that the coach can't say a voluntary prayer that is in no way compulsory to attend? What about THEIR sensibilities and right not to be offended???!!!
But that's what this is supposedly about, that someone is going to supposedly be FORCED to hear a prayer.Edward: Nobody has the right not to be offended.
What moron is going to think the school district or government (you know, the same government that has "In God We Trust" on our currency?) is endorsing a voluntary prayer, attended voluntarily. Does the district advertise this opportunity on its website, send out flyers, make announcements over the intercom. NO one is THAT stupid, to believe such a thing. If they are, then they are going to constantly offended simply in their day-to-day life, business functions, all kinds of places they will hear people say spiritual and OTHER things that they may or may not agree with, many that might offend them - and so, if they don't like it, just like the post-game prayers - they don't have to stay there to listen.Edward: That's not what this is about. The law says that the government can't give the appearance of favoring one religion over another. When a coach publicly prays on the field while he's on the clock he's violating the law and opening the district up to legal action.
Philip wrote: What about a Christian kid who is made to read books that he finds offensive because it's a part of the course? Ban the book? Threaten the teacher who introduced the book? Of COURSE not! Offending the sensibilities of those of faith is routine and almost never even a consideration.
Oh, so the kid who is offended will not have the school district stand up for him over something he finds offensive - he's got to go make a big stinking deal out of it by himself or with his parents' help. Notice the difference? The school is often not worried over questionable materials that are likely to offend many Christians - and so they don't typically worry about it. But they are HYPER vigilant over any perceived religious talk on school grounds. So, a kid who encounters objectionable materials has to go to a PRIVATE ($$$) school???!!! His parents have to find a way to take a breadwinner out of work so the kid can be home schooled? What planet are you on? Point is, schools don't worry much about such things - but they DO worry about religious speech because of lawsuit happy morons, gutless school district officials, and legal advice to avoid such situations at all costs.Edward: That kid can request an alternative assignment, or enroll in a Christian school, or be home schooled.
Bingo! Unless you plan on living your life in a cave, you are sometimes going to be offended by people's speech and actions. It's why you have to learn to not make a big deal out of every little offense - HELLO, atheist kid offended by a simple prayer! Ah, but SOME people are not so very reasonable, are they. No, they call the ACLU or threaten the school district with a lawsuit. I mean, how dumb are people???!!! I don't believe in Zeus, and some coach after a game wants to have a voluntary prayer made in the name of Zeus? I'll leave. Don't have to stay. Did anyone HAVE to stay just because this happened to be the coach leading the prayer? Of course NOT! If people view that as somehow the government or school district endorsing a particular religion, they really have no common sense! And this lack of common sense is killing freedom to express certain kinds of speech that WILL NOT HARM ANYONE NOT FORCED TO LISTEN TO IT! So, like I would say to anyone offended by some TV program's comment - DON'T LISTEN TO IT/CHANGE the channel (go elsewhere).Edward: If he's bound and determined to be offended then he will be, but people are generally more reasonable than you're giving them credit for.
Philip wrote: But there's just nothing more offensive than hearing the words God, Our Father, or Jesus, is there???!!!
So, Ed, where in the constitution does it say a person cannot pray in a public building or place? Please enlighten me.Edward: I have no issue with the words "God, Our Father, or Jesus," but the endless insistence that enforcing the separation of Church and State is anti-Christian persecution gets pretty irritating. It's not a question of why whoever is so easily offended by whatever, it's a question of Constitutional law.
Philip wrote: Last bit of my rant: Spiritual expression is a form of speech, is it not? So, whatever happened to freedom of speech and the right to express oneself? All manner of porn passes that test, but just say "Jesus" and BAM! They're ready to shut you down.
Edward: As Nessa pointed out, there are restrictions on speech at work. The coach knew that, and he initially agreed to stop praying on the field. He started up again after talking to some folks from the Liberty Institute.
Edward: Add it all up and it looks a lot like conservative Christian activists attempting to manufacture a controversy.*
This was only meant to indicate the selectivity of what is considered offensive speech - not referencing schools or public places. But some materials are morally offensive in what they advocate that are clearly common in schools. Maybe not to the level of porn, but nonetheless.Edward: Now about that Jesus/porn comparison - you put them together, not me - I challenge you to name a single place or situation in the entire history of the United States where porn can be legally possessed/distributed/displayed but talking about Jesus would get you in legal trouble...
Yes, history repeats itself. I while back I spoke about how the left makes laws to hides behind and to make legit the destruction of christian rights. Such laws all lead to persecution.Philip wrote:Yes, Melanie, and it is a circus because of WHOM? The school district responded to ONE complaint. Now, prayers have been held at sporting events before and after, at graduations, etc., since America was founded. And NOW suddenly that gets to be a big stinking deal - WHY? This is wrong - whatever the legal opinions. It means the vast majority - even those who are not Christians, have long been fine with it. Also, it has been ruled that Christian clubs CAN meet on school grounds. Students CAN meet and pray at a flagpole - AS LONG AS it is not compulsory, that it is not officially run by the school.
We haven't gotten to that lever yet, but if the Ed Murphy's have their way, we will be there.ANTI-JEWISH LEGISLATION IN PREWAR GERMANY
1933–1934
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005681
The first wave of legislation, from 1933 to 1934, focused largely on limiting the participation of Jews in German public life. The first major law to curtail the rights of Jewish citizens was the "Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service" of April 7, 1933, according to which Jewish and "politically unreliable" civil servants and employees were to be excluded from state service. The new Civil Service Law was the German authorities' first formulation of the so-called Aryan Paragraph, a kind of regulation used to exclude Jews (and often by extension other "non-Aryans") from organizations, professions, and other aspects of public life.
In April 1933, German law restricted the number of Jewish students at German schools and universities. In the same month, further legislation sharply curtailed "Jewish activity" in the medical and legal professions. Subsequent laws and decrees restricted reimbursement of Jewish doctors from public (state) health insurance funds. The city of Berlin forbade Jewish lawyers and notaries to work on legal matters, the mayor of Munich disallowed Jewish doctors from treating non-Jewish patients, and the Bavarian Interior Ministry denied admission of Jewish students to medical school.
At the national level, the Nazi government revoked the licenses of Jewish tax consultants; imposed a 1.5 percent quota on admission of "non-Aryans" to public schools and universities; fired Jewish civilian workers from the army; and, in early 1934, forbade Jewish actors to perform on the stage or screen.
Local governments also issued regulations that affected other spheres of Jewish life: in Saxony, Jews could no longer slaughter animals according to ritual purity requirements, effectively preventing them from obeying Jewish dietary laws.
How irritating...RickD wrote:This story is getting more interesting now.
High school football coach on leave for praying attends game, prays with spectators
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/30/hi ... rays-with/
Satanists were invited to attend the game.
What a bunch of crap. I thought he believed in his football players, but he chooses to ditch them and create this huge, distracting, divisive mess in the middle of their season. What a jerk.A bunch of disingenuous garbage... wrote:"I’m willing to take this as far as it goes to defend the rights of the Constitution, to the end," Kennedy said. "If you believe in something, you stand up."
Sure, Ed, "ALL" he was asked to do is to cease doing something he feels should be a fundamental right - the VERY SAME right afforded vast millions in this country over the past 200 years. I wouldn't call that a small thing. As what he DID really shouldn't be no big deal - just as it hasn't been since the founding. He doesn't think it is right to try to publicly marginalize the speech of Christians aiming such speech at ears who WANT to hear it! And this "Christian activist group" SHOULD make a big deal out of an issue they see as fundamental to the free speech of Christians in public. It's just the step before virtually ANYTHING said by a Christian is deemed hate speech and worthy of fines and imprisonment!Ed: How irritating...
All the guy was asked to do is stop publicly praying while on the clock. Instead he chooses to hook up with an out-of-town conservative Christian activist group and try to make a national controversy out of it.
So, He shouldn't stand up to something he thinks is wrong? Note, also, that he has put himself in the line of fire at considerable cost - he was FIRED!Ed: And then he says this:
A bunch of disingenuous garbage... wrote:
"I’m willing to take this as far as it goes to defend the rights of the Constitution, to the end," Kennedy said. "If you believe in something, you stand up."
Th Policies and laws are there. Friend of mine was just fired for her Christian beliefs for the reason so stated. Laws are enacted, policies too, and you Ed hide behind these on this very forum and your own words bear witness to the truth I pointed out concerning laws and polices...edwardmurphy wrote:Philip - I gave you a link to the school's statement. It has a response to pretty much everything that you wrote.
B.W. - I'm sorry that your imaginary world is so scary, but you can take comfort in the fact that it exists only in your poor, fevered mind.
Indeed... And this is coming from a person that doesn't live in America.melanie wrote:Only in America......
What a circus
Up until the 1960's prayer was teacher led or sometimes the teacher would allow a student to lead the prayer. They would pray,say the pledge and then read passages from the bible every morning.This is what Christians are talking about. I think it is funny you think it is good to remove anything Christian yet at the same time act like it is'nt happening. Come out and pray. for you.edwardmurphy wrote:I listened to about 10 seconds of the song. During that 10 seconds some clown claimed that little boys weren't permitted to pray at school. That's not true, he's a liar, his song is garbage, and if this is how he typically behaves then he's a piss-poor representative of the All-Mighty Creator of the Universe.
Seriously, what is it with conservative Christian activists lying in order to make a point? Is lying no longer a sin? Do they truly feel so vulnerable that they think misrepresenting the facts is the only way they can win the argument? If they truly have faith then why do they feel the need to argue in the first place? It's pathetic.
Philip wrote:For the record, I don't want ANYONE in an official capacity or as designated BY THE SCHOOL to lead prayers or spiritual study DURING school. As long as any such prayers or discussions are entirely voluntary and not held during classroom time - say at lunch or before or after school - then I don't see any problem with them being held on school grounds. And if teachers want to attend such sessions, that is fine as well - even if they sometimes lead them - as long as their is no official sanctioning or oversight and such groups are meeting entirely independent and voluntary.
The argument that this coach was somehow leading prayers while he was still functioning in an official capacity as coach is beyond ludicrous! IF there is any question, there is a VERY simple solution. As soon as the team is released to leave, all the coach should have to say is: "OK, guys, team dismissed. And anyone wishing to remain for our group prayer, please meet at X location, as we'll begin in 5 minutes. And if you decline to attend that is totally fine. As this is completely voluntary and per your personal sensibilities, it is entirely up to whatever your personal wishes."
How difficult would it be for those who want to leave or have no part a prayer session to simply leave? This is so incredibly simple that it's just common sense. And both groups of people are free to do whichever they freely desire to. No school district crapola, no lawyers and lawsuits, no big hoopla. Problem solved! If you don't agree, please tell me why - and with good reasons and not just your subjective opinion.