B. W. wrote:IceMobster wrote:Audacity wrote:Bluejay4 wrote: ". . .(n)either are we in a good position to judge that God lacks morally sufficient reasons for permitting some instance of suffering in the world. God sees the end of history from its beginning and providentially directs a world of free persons toward His pre-visioned ends through the free choices they make."
Awesome.
I agree. It is awesome that god, an omniscient and omnipotent being, had to inflict suffering upon millions and millions of people in order to attain his final goal, whatever it may be. One would think a being with such super-duper powers could have made an end run around suffering and still win the game. Evidently god just doesn't have the wherewithal, nor does the suffering bother him enough. Getting over the goal line is worth the anguish of the players he put into the game. We're nothing more than expendable pawns in his pursuit of the pennant who are expected to thank him for the chance to serve and suffer. How nice. Praise god.
So... Can someone prove this being a fallacy or whatever?
I see fair points here.
Enlighten me (us) please.
Okay let me put it to you another way:
It is awesome that the idea of leftist Utopian governmental entity, an omniscient and omnipotent entity, had to inflict suffering upon millions and millions of people in order to attain its final goal, whatever it may be. One would think such an entity, with its super-duper powers could have made an end run around suffering and still win the game. Evidently Atheism, Marxism, Progressive liberalism just doesn't have the wherewithal, nor does the suffering bother this entity enough. Getting over the goal line is worth the anguish of the players he put into the game. We're nothing more than expendable pawns in his pursuit of the pennant who are expected to thank the leftist for the chance to serve and suffer. How nice. Praise Progressive Socialism!
Now defend atheism, Marxism, Progressive socialism....
Ice, first off how would you define omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent?
There is the human concept of these terms and then there is what God says about himself.
Let me illustrate:
In the scriptures it reveals who God is and what his character and nature is. For example, God cannot lie.
If someone cannot not lie then he must absolutely be able to keep all what he promises, calls forth, and takes no gift back. If he did, then he would be proved a liar and is neither omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. God is just and righteous in all his ways so if he acts contrary then he is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
The claim is that God is not God because he allows suffering and evil; that He is either impersonal or simply non-exist. To find the answers demand honesty and to be honest one needs to let the bible speak of God on God's behalf where God speaks about who He is and stop all shouting of talking points slogans and out of context quotations to justify one cannot use the bible.
In any court of law in the USA, the Accused is allowed to speak and defend himself, yet, militant atheist will not permit God to speak from the bible about himself. In the court system, such behavior by a distinct attorney would cause the case to be dismissed by the judge and the DA held in contempt with loss of license to practice law included. There is no such fairness permitted in militant atheism as they reject letting the bible speak on God's behalf and God defend himself from the very bible they use to attempt to discredit him by loud shouting. Humanity is not fair and not as just or kind as we think we are.
Are you honest in this regards?
If so go to Genesis 1:26-31 and ask yourself what did God promise and give humanity?
If God is truly omnipotent, all powerful, why would he be afraid of granting humanity free moral agency to exercise dominion/rule mentioned in Genesis 1:26-30? If he denied this ability to humanity in any shape or form, then this disproves God is just and righteous in the absolute sense.
With such promise, and calling given humanity comes intelligence, reason, as well as the responsibility to use these wisely - correct?
The exercise of dominion/rule as a representative leader-caretaker on earth involves the use of intelligence, reason as well involves human responsibility. Therefore, again the taking away in any shape or form by God of these granted to mankind by God's own calling, promise, that was given and granted in Gen 1:26-30 to humanity would prove God is not true to his own nature and character.
Now to try suggest that one cannot use the Genesis account due to accidental creation/evolution is the same as the DA not permitting the accused to defend himself, is it not? If you wish or anyone desire to take that route, please start another thread or read the ones already posted on the subject, or watch the sunrise over a secluded mountain top.
Next, let's continue...
God is omniscient so he foreknows all things and since this is so, provided a way back to Himself before humanity fell so as to bring forth a reconciliation back to himself. The way God provides violates not one promise or gift to humanity as well as proves that he indeed remains true and responsible to his own character and nature in a manner and degree and ways that ensures life never ends.
Before you ever or I was born, he provided the means to return to him. He even foreknows our responses and still lets us make our own decisions with no violation to anything he promised or gave to humanity from the very beginning. That manner of return is thru what Jesus did upon the cross which also exposes how far we all have fallen and our need to return to the only one who can restore us back to the original design God Had in mind.
This concept is foreign to you.
The premise of the comment of Audacity is that he desires a world where one is a puppet on a string with the idea that there will be no suffering etc and etc. This idea is in line with the goal, idea, of progressive socialism, yet, progressive socialism, to get there, murders, kills, robs people of self worth/dignity to ensure folks have no free actions that can cause harm. Doubt this - how many folks have been been killed by Communism alone, then, toss in the abortion industry Next, toss in the stated goals of progressive socialism of sustained population growth. Just look at the fruit of such progressive policies in action in Detroit, Chicago (etc), the inner city projects, the Reservations...
Who is really guilty of abusing the gift and promise of God granting the exercise of dominion here?
How do you abuse it?
For God to be absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent also means he is judge, the final judge, of all abuses of the gifts and callings granted humanity.
It is we who are in violation, not God for creating without fear or trepidation about anything - that is the crux of being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and still maintain the truth that he cannot deny himself in anyway. This even means God promises often to his own hurt. This comes about by folks who attempt to pit God's own character traits and nature against each other in order to play, manipulate, or disprove God.
In doing so, God exposes what is evil, truly dysfunctional, so as to justly, fairly, with no violation to anything given to humanity or angelic beings remove it forever in due time as well as sealing it so that there will be no more dysfunctionalism, evil, ever again.
Neither you or I or any form of human government can be that just. You look at things from a limited scope of a world without God and place your hope in what mankind can achieve. Humanity cannot achieve a world without suffering for to do so causes more suffering. For examples, the cry of the unborn being killed in the womb for sustained population growth and funding certain political parties and ideas. The taking away basic human rights in the name of fairness. Detroit and inner city project areas and Reservations where families are fractured, drug addiction, crime rampant, prove the hypocrisy of humanity true.
Mankind cannot save itself. It needs humility to realize we are the real cause all the problems in the world, not God, and come boldly to the throne of God's grace and surrender to him who died on a cross exposing this openly and as well as taking our place so that we who trust God again will be raised into a newness of life indescribably and for those who continue to select to remain dysfunctional...well they remain so – fair is fair.
God publicly exposes what is evil and dysfunctional and makes a spectacle of it revealing its true nature, design and intent in such manner there is absolutely no wiggle room for escape. Justice is meted out in such detail of evidence against the proverbial DA that there is no escape and no way the accuser(s) can prove God as unfair. This is way beyond full mortal comprehension, unless one experienced it themselves.
In this God proves all his ways, and judgments are with absolute equity.
-
-
-
