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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:39 pm
by Audie
Storyteller wrote:I have to confess, belief in God isn't, and never has been, difficult for me. Religion, and even Christ, was.
I can't explain this very well but I have never been able to accept that this miracle we call life, with all its intracacies, was just a glorious accident. Something so mind blowingly improbable. How?
I can kinda get why people may not believe in the Christian God but to believe that this incredibly complex thing we call life is just something that happened?
I find it bizarre.
All this.... just happened, no one finds that weird?
Why is that more believable than creation?
I dont know why it is so easy for people to believe in god(s).
All the religions that have ever been, at best one was right.
But, people believed in ever one of them. Or still do.
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:44 pm
by Philip
B Good: Imagine a single situation like an ant dying for its colony. You can see it as, a permutation of atoms which are a statistically probable outcome given the laws of cause and effect and physics, a complex set of chemical reactions, an ant behaving the way it is because it was evolved to behave that way, an act of love and devotion, or an ultimate sacrifice enobling the ant in the presence of the cosmos. Maybe if one is able to accept each viewpoint as valid we can begin to get to the ultimate truth.
Well, groovy, IF you can tell me how anything could exist to begin with. Where did the previously non-existing universe and all physical things, the planet, and just the perfect and necessary physics, chemistries, designs, functionalities, and conditions for this ant to exist, to begin with, much less to have evolved? WHO designed and created such an extraordinary universe, so perfectly fine-tuned and on such a grand scale?
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:11 pm
by Kenny
Philip wrote:Ken: I don’t understand why it is easier for you to believe God is responsible than a cosmic accident.
This is a staggering statement - the equivalent of saying an awesome universe, without ANY guiding hand or some eternally existing intelligence of immense power, created on a scale so vast, so complex, so incredibly designed, so perfectly functioning, which INSTANTLY came into to existence and INSTANTLY began running itself with breathtaking precision, design and function - not randomly and ever-changing, but with incredible consistency in all of its systems AND how all these many previously non-existing things immediately did, still MUST and DO, interact with each other. We witness NO such things - whether at the macro or the micro levels - popping into existence, NO random things assembling themselves or working independent of the laws of physics, chemistry and biology that all work together as if one immense cosmic Swiss watch. But you have no reason to insist this is happening by itself or randomly, but you say it's easier to believe it happened by itself.
It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not. Perhaps that is why we see things so differently
Ken
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:22 pm
by Philip
Ken: It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not.
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:51 pm
by Kenny
Philip wrote:Ken: It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not.
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:34 am
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:Ken: It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not.
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed?
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one 
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:39 am
by BGoodForGoodSake
Philip wrote:B Good: Imagine a single situation like an ant dying for its colony. You can see it as, a permutation of atoms which are a statistically probable outcome given the laws of cause and effect and physics, a complex set of chemical reactions, an ant behaving the way it is because it was evolved to behave that way, an act of love and devotion, or an ultimate sacrifice enobling the ant in the presence of the cosmos. Maybe if one is able to accept each viewpoint as valid we can begin to get to the ultimate truth.
Well, groovy, IF you can tell me how anything could exist to begin with. Where did the previously non-existing universe and all physical things, the planet, and just the perfect and necessary physics, chemistries, designs, functionalities, and conditions for this ant to exist, to begin with, much less to have evolved? WHO designed and created such an extraordinary universe, so perfectly fine-tuned and on such a grand scale?
It looks like you missed the point of my post.
But if you would like to discuss the topic you brought up, create a new thread on emergent complexity and we can discuss over there.
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:53 am
by Storyteller
Question for you BGood...
The ant, I see both those being true. A collection of atoms acting from stimuli and an ant making a sacrifice for the greater good.
The very fact that there are those options, that we can think, feel and reason. Does that not at least suggest the possibilty of God?
Find God and you find ultimate truth.
And the way to that truth is through Christ.
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:22 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:Ken: It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not.
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed? (Ken)
I would think so
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
(Ken)
It could have always existed
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:44 pm
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:Ken: It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not.
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed? (Ken)
I would think so
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
(Ken)
It could have always existed
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
Actually Ken, we do know that the universe, as we know it, had a beginning so it has NOT always existed.
We also know that nothing in this universe that we know if, that comes into being does so WITHOUT an outside force causing it to be so.
These are things that science knows as well as it knows that Gravity, also called gravitation, is a force that exists among all material objects in the universe. For any two objects or particles having nonzero mass , the force of gravity tends to attract them toward each other. Gravity operates on objects of all sizes, from subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies. It also operates over all distances, no matter how small or great.
I don't know why you would ASSUME the universe has always existed when there are multiple lines of evidence that science confirms to tell us that this is not so.
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:24 pm
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:Ken: It appears you make a lot of assumptions about the Universe that I do not.
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed? (Ken)
I would think so
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
(Ken)
It could have always existed
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
Why?
Why would you assume that?
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:53 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed? (Ken)
I would think so
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
(Ken)
It could have always existed
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
PaulSacramento wrote:Actually Ken, we do know that the universe, as we know it, had a beginning so it has NOT always existed.
I agree with the first half; that the Universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning (Big Bang). This implies it may have existed differently before then they just don’t know. Science does not claim a time in history when absolutely nothing existed. Now if the Universe is defined as “
all that exists” that means whatever it was that existed prior to the Universe existing AS WE KNOW IT was still the Universe. But of course if those silly scientists don’t know what they’re talking about when they refuse to consider God a factor in all of this, why should they be taken seriously with anything else they say?
PaulSacramento wrote:We also know that nothing in this universe that we know if, that comes into being does so WITHOUT an outside force causing it to be so.
These are things that science knows as well as it knows that Gravity, also called gravitation, is a force that exists among all material objects in the universe. For any two objects or particles having nonzero mass , the force of gravity tends to attract them toward each other. Gravity operates on objects of all sizes, from subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies. It also operates over all distances, no matter how small or great.
[/quote]
Does this also apply to Dark energy, and Dark matter which makes up 96% of the Universe? Or does this only apply to the 4% of the Universe that scientists know of.
https://westernparadigm.wordpress.com/2 ... -universe/
Ken
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:56 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:
What assumptions am I making, Ken?
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed? (Ken)
I would think so
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
(Ken)
It could have always existed
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
Why?
Why would you assume that?
Because the idea that something could come from nothing does not make sense to me. We know something exists, so logic and reason tells me something had to have always existed. Weather this something that has always existed is the dark matter and dark matter that science knows nothing about, or the normal matter and energy we do know about; it just makes sense to me that something has always existed
Ken
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:05 pm
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:
*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.
So it has always existed? (Ken)
I would think so
*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itself
How else could it have happened?
(Ken)
It could have always existed
*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.
I`ll give you that one
Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.
Ken
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
Why?
Why would you assume that?
Because the idea that something could come from nothing does not make sense to me. We know something exists, so logic and reason tells me something had to have always existed. Weather this something that has always existed is the dark matter and dark matter that science knows nothing about, or the normal matter and energy we do know about; it just makes sense to me that something has always existed
Ken
So Ken, is it just possible that God could be that something?
Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:02 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:Kenny wrote:Storyteller wrote:
Ken? What do you believe?
I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.
Ken
Why?
Why would you assume that?
Because the idea that something could come from nothing does not make sense to me. We know something exists, so logic and reason tells me something had to have always existed. Weather this something that has always existed is the dark matter and dark matter that science knows nothing about, or the normal matter and energy we do know about; it just makes sense to me that something has always existed
Ken
So Ken, is it just possible that God could be that something?
(When you say God I will assume you are referring to the God as described in the Bible)
One of the many the reasons God doesn’t make sense to me is because if God sees mankind as the most important thing in the Universe; (created in his own image) I have to ask why is the rest of the entire universe hostile to mankind? Why would he create such a vast universe then make it useless to mankind? He spend 5 days creating this tiny planet, and less than one day creating everything else! Yet when you compare the entire Universe; stars, planets, galaxies, etc. to this tiny speck of a planet, it would make more sense if he had spent more time creating everything else and a microsecond creating planet earth.
It seems to me if something that saw mankind as the most important thing in the Universe was responsible for it all, things would be much different.
Ken