Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God, be Good ( since being bad or evil would mean that a being that is good would be better then Him, ergo he could not be God).
As for all the people He killed in the OT.
Let's not, for now, not deal with who they were and why they had to die.
Lets deal with the real issue which is does God have the right to kill people, because, if He has the right then He was justified in doing so REGARDLESS of how WE feel about it.

If God exists then He is ALL GOOD and all good means also ALL RIGHTEOUS, which means that He can't allow sin and evil to go unpunished ( sin and evil being by-product of free will, God can NOT eliminate them because that would go against His very nature) and since He can't allow sin and evil to go unpunished he must then punish evil.

So, what about all those people He killed?
Well, they were sinful and evil and, on top of that, they did NOT view themselves as being in the wrong so there was no redemption possible for them.
There are more issues there also, the fact that there were entire civilizations/ blood lines that were contaminated by "son's of God" that left Heaven and who's offspring reeked havoc on the world.

Remember, God always gives a chance at redemption and it is only when people reject God's offer that judgment is passed.

Is this irony or sincere?

Storyteller wrote:P.S.

When I first joined here, I was nearer the agnostic end of the spectrum but there was a tiny seed of belief. I took a leap of faith, went okay, you`re real, I trust you, I believe, now what?
What made you do that? It is quite an irrational thing to do. Much like I could go to some norse mythology site and say: "Okay, I trust in Odin, now what? Yes, this religion, as Philip said, has much more credibility but it doesn't change the fact that it is an irrational thing to start like that.
Through debating things on here, while I am willing to accept I may be wrong, nothing has convinced me I am. Whereas so much has convinced me I`m right.
Yeah, well, what did you expect? This is a Christian forum, lol.
I think arguing (sorry, debating) with atheists is a good thing. It can help with figuring things out. Seeing both sides kind of thing.
Nothing that has been put forward by a non believer has swayed me from my belief, it has strengthened it if anything.

Storyteller wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Philip wrote:

but I can't seem to explain it to some atheist... (S)he doesn't want to accept a God who kills people... What do I do then? The conversation comes to a dead end...

Ice, why are you debating the acceptance of God with anyone UNTIL you, yourself embrace Him? Really, what is the point?

Umm, because atheism makes no sense? I didn't say I didn't embrace Him. I said I can't be sure the incarnation through Jesus is/was real.

Why not?

And I ask because less than eighteen months ago I felt the same.

Sure, I can accept God, I can even accept Christ. But rise from the dead? Really?

All I can say is research, question and trust.

As hard as it is to get your head around, I really, really do believe it`s true. There is the shroud, the fact no body has ever been found and the fact that his followers after believing all was lost, saw Him, touched Him. Knew He was real, in the flesh. They knew. And they were so sure, they gave up their lives rather than deny the truth of it.

Norsemen were also sure they will enter Valhalla and drink with Odin if they die with his name on their lips in the middle of the battle. Yes, the difference is that Christians (for the most part) chose not to battle, however, people can be manipulated big time. Such events can be found throughout history.

Read my first post on My Journey.

I have always believed in God, read everything I could on God, religion, faith, belief.
If what is said about Christ is true it is the most beautiful thing there is, or ever can be, ever was.

I have always known God. I asked Christ in.

I found this forum by accident, after reading the articles and thinking yeah, science does prove God.

Yes, its a Christian forum but we're not all believers.

And yeah, you could go to some norse site but you didnt.
You came here.
As did I.

I Dealt With You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWhTsAXw7yw

Storyteller wrote:And yeah, you could go to some norse site but you didnt.
You came here.
As did I.

Hehehehehe, what makes you think I'm not registered both there and here?

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Because He humbled Himself, to live with us, as one of us, and died for us.
And He allows us to choose.

I am well aware of that.

No you are not...
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IceMobster wrote:... however, people can be manipulated big time. Such events can be found throughout history.

That is correct,therefore, how are you trying to be manipulative here, right now?
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All non Christians religions, even the ancient Norse all depended on rituals to make things right because they could not live according their own ways, rules, standards.

People of all cultures have values and virtues concerning things like kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity. All these are celebrated as virtues in all cultures throughout history.

Why? Who made this real to folks all throughout history?

Some answer and say culture or society developed these - why?

Some answer and say so folks can get along with each other...

If that is the case, then why can't Ice, Ed, Audacity, and Audie live up to these standards? In fact, why can't anyone reading this live up to these standards?

Norse religion, and all non-christian religions have codes, standards, and if these are broken people devise rituals or do good deeds so one can make it right and cover their collective rear end. However, the good one desires to do they do not do it but instead do what is wrong, continually.

So no one actually lives by wisdom, for all act stupidly and if one consumes alcohol in excess on a steady bases - how is that wisdom?

No can live by the virtue of kinship either because the strife, betrayal, rejection, emotional abandonment, abuse, is pervasive in families. For example, even Audie mentioned once her own mother never said with words, she loved her so that is used as justification to reject others here... and tout the virtues of respect and tolerance of culture but exhibit none here.

The good one desires to do, they cannot maintain that good and instead slip and do what is opposite continuously.There is no one good, or perfect no not one... as it is written.

All these standards were came about to point to the need for a savior to save us from ourselves and provide the means to make it back to the original design of the creator. When one rejects the creator, they reject and show no tolerance, or respect for others and always seek ways to ruin the faith and life of others - not wise. They have no hope.

These came to all nations and people to point to Jesus Christ who paid the price by giving his life for out breaking all these virtues we claim to live by but break everyday.

All other non-Christian religions rely on self effort - works - deeds - vows - rituals they cannot possibly keep. They rely on self. Christianity relies on God's grace alone paid for by Jesus Christ to help us live right during our journey home. This takes trust and by trust things are restored.

Without trust which Ice, Ed, Audacity, and Audie all mock and yet, were are to trust them - have faith in them as the sole arbitrators of truth and live according to the dictates of self that violate consistently he virtues of kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity - is well laughable and hopeless.

Even Audies is incapable of reading any more than one or two sentences on this forum - so much for respect... she learned from her culture...

We as Christian place or trust in the living God and his Grace and are thus changed day by day - we show grace and allow you all to post here but there will come a time when there will be no more...

Jesus stand at the door of the heart of all people and knocks but some folks have no virtue or wisdom to let Him in.

Why would God want folks, who believe in nothing, who ruin virtues always, and who make heaven into hell on earth by self glorification - to be with such for eternity?

Folks eternity exist - this planet will literally cease one day... All any of us all face is eternity.

Saying one honors, kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity, goodness, etc... what good is any of it if you cease to be? Eternity exist - so Dos God who we all must face. One may believe there is no God - ok then - you have no purpose or value at all - that is what you defend. It does not matter, you will awake after you die into a true state of life that never ends. It is on you... so what...

Mock us, yet belly ache when you are mocked - you cannot live to your own standards how you treat me or us who believe and know Jesus - proves the hypocrite in you is alive and well...

We as Christians extend the grace of Jesus to you to find out for yourself how real he really is. Take the plunge - what do you have to loose?
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B. W. wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Because He humbled Himself, to live with us, as one of us, and died for us.
And He allows us to choose.

I am well aware of that.

No you are not...
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I am aware of it. Doesn't mean I accept it as the truth. Much like you are aware of atheist's point of view (in general) on a topic, but you do not accept it as the truth.

B. W. wrote:

IceMobster wrote:... however, people can be manipulated big time. Such events can be found throughout history.

That is correct,therefore, how are you trying to be manipulative here, right now?
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Dafuq? I'm not trying to be manipulative. At least not willingly.

B. W. wrote:All non Christians religions, even the ancient Norse all depended on rituals to make things right because they could not live according their own ways, rules, standards.

People of all cultures have values and virtues concerning things like kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity. All these are celebrated as virtues in all cultures throughout history.

Why? Who made this real to folks all throughout history?

Some answer and say culture or society developed these - why?

Some answer and say so folks can get along with each other...

If that is the case, then why can't Ice, Ed, Audacity, and Audie live up to these standards? In fact, why can't anyone reading this live up to these standards?

Norse religion, and all non-christian religions have codes, standards, and if these are broken people devise rituals or do good deeds so one can make it right and cover their collective rear end. However, the good one desires to do they do not do it but instead do what is wrong, continually.

So no one actually lives by wisdom, for all act stupidly and if one consumes alcohol in excess on a steady bases - how is that wisdom?

No can live by the virtue of kinship either because the strife, betrayal, rejection, emotional abandonment, abuse, is pervasive in families. For example, even Audie mentioned once her own mother never said with words, she loved her so that is used as justification to reject others here... and tout the virtues of respect and tolerance of culture but exhibit none here.

The good one desires to do, they cannot maintain that good and instead slip and do what is opposite continuously.There is no one good, or perfect no not one... as it is written.

All these standards were came about to point to the need for a savior to save us from ourselves and provide the means to make it back to the original design of the creator. When one rejects the creator, they reject and show no tolerance, or respect for others and always seek ways to ruin the faith and life of others - not wise. They have no hope.

These came to all nations and people to point to Jesus Christ who paid the price by giving his life for out breaking all these virtues we claim to live by but break everyday.

All other non-Christian religions rely on self effort - works - deeds - vows - rituals they cannot possibly keep. They rely on self. Christianity relies on God's grace alone paid for by Jesus Christ to help us live right during our journey home. This takes trust and by trust things are restored.

Without trust which Ice, Ed, Audacity, and Audie all mock and yet, were are to trust them - have faith in them as the sole arbitrators of truth and live according to the dictates of self that violate consistently he virtues of kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity - is well laughable and hopeless.

Even Audies is incapable of reading any more than one or two sentences on this forum - so much for respect... she learned from her culture...

We as Christian place or trust in the living God and his Grace and are thus changed day by day - we show grace and allow you all to post here but there will come a time when there will be no more...

Jesus stand at the door of the heart of all people and knocks but some folks have no virtue or wisdom to let Him in.

Why would God want folks, who believe in nothing, who ruin virtues always, and who make heaven into hell on earth by self glorification - to be with such for eternity?

Folks eternity exist - this planet will literally cease one day... All any of us all face is eternity.

Saying one honors, kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity, goodness, etc... what good is any of it if you cease to be? Eternity exist - so Dos God who we all must face. One may believe there is no God - ok then - you have no purpose or value at all - that is what you defend. It does not matter, you will awake after you die into a true state of life that never ends. It is on you... so what...

Mock us, yet belly ache when you are mocked - you cannot live to your own standards how you treat me or us who believe and know Jesus - proves the hypocrite in you is alive and well...

We as Christians extend the grace of Jesus to you to find out for yourself how real he really is. Take the plunge - what do you have to loose?
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Nah. I do believe in the Creator and even though it is most evident that He incarnated through Christ, I can't be sure. Therefore, I choose not to believe in Christ.
However, I do agree with most points you said here:"Saying one honors, kinship, courage, fortitude, wisdom, humility, respect, perseverance, sacrifice and generosity, goodness, etc... what good is any of it if you cease to be?......"

PaulSacramento wrote:IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God, be Good ( since being bad or evil would mean that a being that is good would be better then Him, ergo he could not be God).

But why does another being have to exist? Why can't god, the creator of absolutely everything, be bad and be the only god? You will have to show why your statement "IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God" is true, because your Begging the Question here simply doesn't do it.

As for all the people He killed in the OT.
Let's not, for now, not deal with who they were and why they had to die.
Lets deal with the real issue which is does God have the right to kill people, because, if He has the right then He was justified in doing so REGARDLESS of how WE feel about it.

So, what does it mean to "have the right"? Rights are entitlements, and entitlements don't just appear out of thin air, but are bestowed by some other entity, a person or persons. So who gave god this right to to kill people? From all I can tell it's none other than the people who believe in him. Not that he couldn't do what he did without their permission, but the permission is entirely a self serving excuse to absolve god of the evil he did/does so as to save his image. It's a true Christian thing.

Pretty much figured you'd come up with the old "Whatever god does is justified because he's god" argument sooner or later. Nice, but as it stands, without proof or at least good reason---make your argument why it should be so---it's nothing more than Sunday school rhetoric.

So, what about all those people He killed?
Well, they were sinful and evil and, on top of that, they did NOT view themselves as being in the wrong so there was no redemption possible for them.

Like all the sinful infants and young children he killed or had killed.


1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.


Nice guy, this god of yours, exercising his right to wield his "justice" on innocent infants and young children.

Audacity wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God, be Good ( since being bad or evil would mean that a being that is good would be better then Him, ergo he could not be God).

But why does another being have to exist? Why can't god, the creator of absolutely everything, be bad and be the only god? You will have to show why your statement "IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God" is true, because your Begging the Question here simply doesn't do it.

I think he's referring to any being - human or whatever - if anyone was good they'd be better than an evil God, who could then not really be God.

Nicki wrote:

Audacity wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God, be Good ( since being bad or evil would mean that a being that is good would be better then Him, ergo he could not be God).

But why does another being have to exist? Why can't god, the creator of absolutely everything, be bad and be the only god? You will have to show why your statement "IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God" is true, because your Begging the Question here simply doesn't do it.

I think he's referring to any being - human or whatever - if anyone was good they'd be better than an evil God, who could then not really be God.

You might be right.


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Audacity wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God, be Good ( since being bad or evil would mean that a being that is good would be better then Him, ergo he could not be God).

But why does another being have to exist? Why can't god, the creator of absolutely everything, be bad and be the only god? You will have to show why your statement "IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God" is true, because your Begging the Question here simply doesn't do it.

As for all the people He killed in the OT.
Let's not, for now, not deal with who they were and why they had to die.
Lets deal with the real issue which is does God have the right to kill people, because, if He has the right then He was justified in doing so REGARDLESS of how WE feel about it.

So, what does it mean to "have the right"? Rights are entitlements, and entitlements don't just appear out of thin air, but are bestowed by some other entity, a person or persons. So who gave god this right to to kill people? From all I can tell it's none other than the people who believe in him. Not that he couldn't do what he did without their permission, but the permission is entirely a self serving excuse to absolve god of the evil he did/does so as to save his image. It's a true Christian thing.

Pretty much figured you'd come up with the old "Whatever god does is justified because he's god" argument sooner or later. Nice, but as it stands, without proof or at least good reason---make your argument why it should be so---it's nothing more than Sunday school rhetoric.

So, what about all those people He killed?
Well, they were sinful and evil and, on top of that, they did NOT view themselves as being in the wrong so there was no redemption possible for them.

Like all the sinful infants and young children he killed or had killed.


1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.


Nice guy, this god of yours, exercising his right to wield his "justice" on innocent infants and young children.

Now sure what you basis for "moral outrage" is.
You seem to have a problem with God ordering the taking the lives of people, why?

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audacity wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God, be Good ( since being bad or evil would mean that a being that is good would be better then Him, ergo he could not be God).

But why does another being have to exist? Why can't god, the creator of absolutely everything, be bad and be the only god? You will have to show why your statement "IF God exists then He must, by the very definition of being God" is true, because your Begging the Question here simply doesn't do it.

As for all the people He killed in the OT.
Let's not, for now, not deal with who they were and why they had to die.
Lets deal with the real issue which is does God have the right to kill people, because, if He has the right then He was justified in doing so REGARDLESS of how WE feel about it.

So, what does it mean to "have the right"? Rights are entitlements, and entitlements don't just appear out of thin air, but are bestowed by some other entity, a person or persons. So who gave god this right to to kill people? From all I can tell it's none other than the people who believe in him. Not that he couldn't do what he did without their permission, but the permission is entirely a self serving excuse to absolve god of the evil he did/does so as to save his image. It's a true Christian thing.

Pretty much figured you'd come up with the old "Whatever god does is justified because he's god" argument sooner or later. Nice, but as it stands, without proof or at least good reason---make your argument why it should be so---it's nothing more than Sunday school rhetoric.

So, what about all those people He killed?
Well, they were sinful and evil and, on top of that, they did NOT view themselves as being in the wrong so there was no redemption possible for them.

Like all the sinful infants and young children he killed or had killed.


1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.


Nice guy, this god of yours, exercising his right to wield his "justice" on innocent infants and young children.

Now sure what you basis for "moral outrage" is.
You seem to have a problem with God ordering the taking the lives of people, why?

I simply find the taking of innocent lives to be abhorrent. Evidently you do not.


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Why do you find it abhorrent?