Evidence for God from Science

No, you are mistaken.
The simple fact that there is a choice, makes choice.
Your view that because there are influences on the choice(s) we make then no choice is free of some sort of coercion and as such there is no free will, miss the very REAL point that we choice because of OR in spite of the influences and THAT is our choice.
The very ACT of choosing is a choice and is made freely.

You are hung up on the view that coercion ( or more correctly influence) means that one CAN'T choose differently when free will is NOT about choosinG DIFFERENTLY but simply about being ABLE to choose.

You seem to be confusing liberty with freedom.


When choosing heads or tails I am subject to the "coercion" of only having being able to choose either head or tails ( or not playing at all) BUT I still choose which one and NO ONE would ever say that I had no free will in choosing heads or tails ( or not to play at all).

First of all, PaulS, I note that you couldn't answer any of the questions I asked you. Disappointing and kind of telling, but not symptomatic I hope.

PaulSacramento wrote:No, you are mistaken.
The simple fact that there is a choice, makes choice.

Begging the question doesn't fly.

Your view that because there are influences on the choice(s) we make then no choice is free of some sort of coercion and as such there is no free will, miss the very REAL point that we choice because of OR in spite of the influences and THAT is our choice.

It's a vacuous point at the very least.

The very ACT of choosing is a choice and is made freely.

Begging the question again.

You are hung up on the view that coercion ( or more correctly influence) means that one CAN'T choose differently when free will is NOT about choosinG DIFFERENTLY but simply about being ABLE to choose.

Actually, what you might say I'm hung up on, is the fact that because the will isn't free of determinants it renders the concept of choice moot: there is no such thing. (Might want to revisit my OP and reread.)

When choosing heads or tails I am subject to the "coercion" of only having being able to choose either head or tails ( or not playing at all) BUT I still choose which one and NO ONE would ever say that I had no free will in choosing heads or tails ( or not to play at all).

I would.

Well Audacity You`re a ball of prickles, aren`t you?

So, are you saying free will doesn`t exist? That we are all under some kind of control, whether that be genes, mind, the ghost in the machine, God, whatever...

Maybe none of us are real? Maybe we`re all figures in some virtual world?

Are you real? Am I?

Are we driven by instinct and nature rather than thought and free will?

He's saying that the free will strawman that he created, doesn't exist.

But free will as traditionally understood, as Jac has so wonderfully explained, is the real free will that we are referring to.

But, it's a lot easier to tear down a straw man, than it is to be intellectually honest, and deal with what we really believe.

First of all, PaulS, I note that you couldn't answer any of the questions I asked you. Disappointing and kind of telling, but not symptomatic I hope.

I did answer them, you just didn't understand the answer, so, one by one:

So your definition of freewill would be: the ability to choose from the choices one has. That about it?

No, free will is having a choice and exerting choice.

But exactly what determines what he chooses?

Not relevant BUT it can be one thing, many thing or all things ( an example would be laws, personal experience, mood...)

Yet having "no viable choice" would mean it isn't freely made, but coerced. If you are made to do X would you say you freely chose to do X? I certainly wouldn't.

Coercion is not relevant. You say coercion I say motivation, or understanding or whatever other word you wanna use but it all equals the sum of all the influences and experiences we have up to that point.

Which is the reason why I pointed out that there's no such a thing as choosing, or any of its cognates.

Like Rick point out, you created a strawman argument of free will and the only free will argument you have "dispelled" is the one you created.

Storyteller wrote:Well Audacity So, are you saying free will doesn`t exist? That we are all under some kind of control, whether that be genes, mind, the ghost in the machine, God, whatever...

Controlled by the causes that precede and put into effect what one does.

Maybe none of us are real? Maybe we`re all figures in some virtual world?
Are you real? Am I?

Interesting, but an irrelevant line of thought.

Are we driven by instinct and nature rather than thought and free will?

We're driven by those chains of cause/effect events that eventually provoke our actions, both mental and physical.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________

The main trouble people seem to be having here is that they can't pry themselves away from the conclusion that free will exists so as to describe how it works, i/ e. free of any coercion. Some of you just dance around the issue rather than meeting it face on, using screwy re-definitions of free will, posting total irrelevancies, or continue to jabber on; rephrasing irreverent points, or substituting other terms for "free will" and then assuming any of its definitions applies to free will as well.

But probably most disturbing is the ploy of ignoring my questions concerning something that's said.

I'll be happy to answer any question you have IF you answer mine first.

So what's the cause?

Storyteller wrote:So what's the cause?

Of the actions of the will? Utter random events, a successive series of cause/effect operations, or a combination of the two. If this isn't satisfactory, then what do you see as controlling the decisions of the will?

I meant what are the causes that precede and put into action.
In the case of will, I believe we have free will, something more than instinct. We question things. We get lost in the beauty of a sunset.
We have a soul, a spirit, that has the ability to do this, we have free will.

As for controlling our will? Our heart, our soul, our yearning for God, or not, controls that.

Audacity,

Do yourself and us, a favor, and reread this post by Jac.

Until you understand what you're arguing against, you're defeating a straw man.

Audacity you have free will. Jesus can save you,Jesus died for you too,so that you can be saved and all you've got to do is believe in him and ask him to save you. If you reject this? You are using your free-will to deny God's gift of salvation to you.You are using your free will to reject him,by choice for whatever reason. But you could choose to believe and be saved just like others have,it is your choice. Nobody, not even God will force you or make you do it because it must come from your heart because God created you with free will to accept him or reject him,and only you can choose for yourself using your free will to believe in him and serve him or reject him.

Storyteller wrote:I meant what are the causes that precede and put into action.

The chain of cause/effect events in your life that ultimately led up to the moment of your doing.

In the case of will, I believe we have free will, something more than instinct. We question things. We get lost in the beauty of a sunset.
We have a soul, a spirit, that has the ability to do this, we have free will.

Fine, but this isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking how the will goes about deciding to do this rather than that.

RickD wrote:Audacity,

Do yourself and us, a favor, and reread this post by Jac.

Until you understand what you're arguing against, you're defeating a straw man.

I did, and replied right below it.

Sorry, but I don't know how to find the linking url to any particular post.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Audacity you have free will. Jesus can save you,Jesus died for you too,so that you can be saved and all you've got to do is believe in him and ask him to save you. If you reject this? You are using your free-will to deny God's gift of salvation to you.You are using your free will to reject him,by choice for whatever reason. But you could choose to believe and be saved just like others have,it is your choice. Nobody, not even God will force you or make you do it because it must come from your heart because God created you with free will to accept him or reject him,and only you can choose for yourself using your free will to believe in him and serve him or reject him.

You don't really think this explains how the will works do you? If not, then why are you bothering to go to the trouble of posting it?