Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote:

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Just a thought.

I was thinking along those lines as well, when I told Bippy that he should invite him here anyways.

Sounds like an interesting topic for discussion.

I know, and I love you for it

Maybe B. W. and he can swap death stories.

Now, that, would be a discussion I'd be curious in.

I have read hundreds of NDE's many by Christians and not all of them reference to Jesus. Those that do see Jesus see Him in bodily form usually. Then there is the light we so often hear about that is always explained as the most intense and wonderful form of love. Many claim to be enfolded and enveloped in it. Many experiencers make the distinction that the light is God the Father, and Jesus is well Jesus.
We are the sons and daughters of God. I can't imagine what it must feel like to be in the presence of our Father, to feel that love saturate us. What this man explains about not just feeling the love but being truly part of the love is a common theme in NDE.
Let's not forget this man was an atheist with zero belief in Christianity, the fact that he spends the entire first paragraph explaining such I think is an indication he has since embraced Christianity but I don't know, I would like to know though what his thoughts are on Jesus. It does read a little new agey but perhaps he is still working out spiritually how this experience ties in with his Christianity. He is a newby in faith.

I think you need to be very careful Philip in so bodly stating what God would, could or shouldn't do. There have been thousands of Muslims, atheists ect who have NDE and changed their lives around and often others around them because of their experience with God. Who the heck are we to say God doesn't use these experiences to bring His kiddies home to Him. God knows the final outcome, He knows that their time on earth isn't over, so He could quite possibly use this temporary NDE to reveal truth to those He sees fit, according to His plan and His will. I don't think He's too concerned what a few Christians on a Internet forum think Him capable of.
There are literally hundreds and hundreds of non Christians who have come to believe in God through NDE. In fact some of the most profound NDE are such.
Now I don't know this bloke so I don't know what his spirtual understanding is in regards to Jesus. But I'm pretty annoyed that a Christian would make the claim that nobody can enter Heaven who isn't saved even temporarily, in saying that you have discredited the most life changing NDE that people have experienced who have subsequently turned their life around to Jesus. Hundreds of NDEs by this standard have been deemed impossible even in the majority of cases where they are now Christian. What you have in essence asserted is that if it's impossible then it cannot be from God, therefore it's demonic. Now I'm not saying demonic deception isn't real but I would be real careful about attributing people's NDE, some who have seen Jesus and the Father and become Christian as demonic because if your wrong, you are claiming that the life changing experiences these non believers go through that could be the work of God in their lives is actually nothing more than demonic.
Be very careful you're not calling the works of God, the works of Satan

Also how do you know they are in heaven? There are many NDE that get glimpses of heaven but there are many who don't. You don't know whether this man, or any previous non believers who go through this are actually within the Kingdom of God when it's experiences. As soon as they die they enter into the spirtual realm, the spiritual realm is not entirely made up of heaven. Heaven is within the spiritual realm, the spirtual realm isn't contained in heaven. The Father is not bound by heaven. Most NDE don't claim to have gone to heaven but rather to have had an encounter with the Father, Jesus or both within the spiritual realm.

I would be very wary Bippy of bringing this bloke to this forum. Quite honestly it could turn him off his pursuit for Christianty if that indeed is where he is at. He may not be, but god forbid he is and he is greeted by Christians who proceed to tell him that because he was a non believer previous to the experience regardless of whether said experience was the profound moment that changed his life and made him embrace Christianty it is impossible for it to anything but demonic.
I don't think God needs that kind of PR.

Now I often feel my words are misconstrued on here. I think I made it pretty obvious but I am going to make a point crystal clear so there is no confusion.
I DONT KNOW IF THIS GUY IS LEGIT, OR A LEGIT CHRISTIAN
I have no way of knowing, so there's no need to come back at me with but he could be deceived and it's our job as Christians to tell him, he could be and in that case good job.
My point of contention is the notion that every single case of a NDE when experienced by a non believer regardless of whether they saw Jesus or not, or whether this made them turn to Jesus is nothing more than a demonic deception because non believers can't go to 'heaven' I use this term loosely, can't have an experience with the Father or Jesus even temporarily because Philip said God doesn't do that.

Mel, you are something else.

Philip was saying that we should use caution and discernment.


You have heard of discernment, haven't you?

Mel,

You really should read B.W.'s book. It sheds a lot of light on what we're talking about.

One of the best books I've ever read. I highly recommend it.

Phillip said

Also, NO person can enter Heaven who isn't saved - however temporarily.

I have seen B.W on YouTube where he talk through his entire experience. It's an hour or so long. I have also read and watched everything I can get my hands on in regards to NDE's.

My discernment is I wouldn't have a bloody clue if this bloke is legit, he may not be, and he may be deceived I think I made that pretty clear.
I'm not asserting for a second that just because this bloke felt love or experienced the light that that means he is telling the truth or didn't have a deception.

It's very difficult on here at times to get people to grasp the crux of a point.
I'm going to use big letters again
SOME PEOPLE COULD QUITE POSSIBLY HAVE DEMONIC DECEPTIONS.
Whether we should use discretion is obvious. And again not the point I was making.
This is not the first time Philip has said that non believers cannot go to heaven, even temporarily.
What temporarily means is what we are talking about NDE.
So in essence Philip is saying non believers can not have a NDE where they experience GOD in what he understands as the heavenly realm.

I get where mel is coming from.

This guy who didnt believe in God now does.
Because he didnt mention Christ, and related to being a son of God, its demonic?

God is love.
He felt that.
We are all children of God.
He felt that.

Maybe it wasnt his time because he doesnt know who Christ is?

Maybe we should welcome him instead of assuming he knows Him, or rejects Him because he doesn't name Him.

melanie wrote:Phillip said

Also, NO person can enter Heaven who isn't saved - however temporarily.

I have seen B.W on YouTube where he talk through his entire experience. It's an hour or so long. I have also read and watched everything I can get my hands on in regards to NDE.

Show me from scripture, that Philip is wrong in that quote.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with that quote. Why would any believer disagree with that?

Storyteller wrote:I get where mel is coming from.

This guy who didnt believe in God now does.
Because he didnt mention Christ, and related to being a son of God, its demonic?

God is love.
He felt that.
We are all children of God.
He felt that.

Maybe it wasnt his time because he doesnt know who Christ is?

Maybe we should welcome him instead of assuming he knows Him, or rejects Him because he doesn't name Him.

I don't see anyone saying they won't welcome him.

I'll see your "God is love", and I'll raise you a "Satan masquerades as an angel of light".

Look, it's possible that this guy saw God when he died. But let's not assume that. All we have to go on, is what he wrote. And there are a lot of red flags in what he wrote, that discernment is necessary.

Again, I take you back to what B. W. spoke about. When he died, he saw the same light. Then after he was dead longer, he realized the light, and other things were deceptions. And he ended up in hell.

When someone says they had an experience with God, and then they tell me that we all are God the son, I question if this person really saw God. It's called discernment. Just like if someone says they are a Christian, and then says that Jesus is a man, but not God incarnate, something is off.

With all that said, I'd love for the guy to join the forum. Something tells me there's a lot to be discussed.

Let's get this in context.
We are talking about NDE's.
What Philip meant by temporarily is the very subject we are talking about. Temporarily dying, then coming back.
I'm getting annoyed, it's an easy concept to grasp.
This statement is essentially saying a non believer cannot have a NDE where they are in the presence of God. They can have a NDE, but if you did not believe in God previous to the experience then you don't get the God experience, you may get the demonic deception experience.

Maybe it took them dying and recognising God that will bring them to Christ?

God reveals Himself in whatever way He needs.

melanie wrote:Let's get this in context.
We are talking about NDE's.
What Philip meant by temporarily is the very subject we are talking about. Temporarily dying, then coming back.
I'm getting annoyed, it's an easy concept to grasp.
This statement is essentially saying a non believer cannot have a NDE where they are in the presence of God. They can have a NDE, but if you did not believe in God previous to the experience then you don't get the God experience, you may get the demonic deception experience.

I don't think that's what Philip is saying. That would be akin to saying that God is restricted to "existing" in heaven.

God is omnipresent. So, even if one has a NDE and goes to hell, like B. W. did, they're still in God's presence.

from what the guy wrote, his own words tell me something is off. And hopefully he will join, and we can discuss the topic.

Storyteller wrote:Maybe it took them dying and recognising God that will bring them to Christ?

God reveals Himself in whatever way He needs.

Yes Annette. That is what we hope for in these situations.

Another way to put it, is that what Satan means for evil, God uses for good.

So, even if it was demonic in nature, God can still use it for good.

No, Mel, what I believe is no one can actually enter HEAVEN without being saved. How could they, even temporarily? Yes, they can indeed experience God in a NDE, as do unbelievers on earth (think about Apostle Paul, Moses). But we should be extremely careful as to what we accept as supposed truth based upon a second-hand NDE account. Also, cannot God allow one to have a glimpse of Heaven without that person actually being there? In 2 Corinthians 12, the Apostle Paul is clearly speaking of his own experience about Heaven. But what does he say? "Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know..." Now, Paul was a Christian - so he may well have been physically in Heaven - but he says He is uncertain of that.

But how could anyone corrupt and unforgiven (in God's eyes) stand in the presence of God, IN HEAVEN, where there is no corruption? So many NDEs speak of this bright light and unimaginable love, speak of butterflies and golden fields, brilliant, amazing colors - but not one word about Jesus, and often speaking of supposed communications with a God presence that appear contradictory to Scripture. Apparently, before an unbeliever is actually permanently put in hell, the demonic can still deceive, to the point that the experience is retained and believed to be completely authentic (no deceptions) upon resuming life, even if it includes major Scriptural contradictions.

I'm really uncertain as to why Mel is upset about this? Is she upset because I am rightly cautious about a second-hand experience, or should I just accept as true an account that begs some serious questions. Also, do we have any such accounts in Scripture, of an UNBELIEVER visiting Heaven? I'll also add that I was very skeptical about B.W.'s account of hell. However, it matches up perfectly with what Scripture teaches AND we see that a man whose pre- (temporary) death self identification was of an aggressive, radical atheist, immediately transformed into a zealous Christian - which his amazing 180-degree spiritual turn makes me inclined to believe it. B.W. strikes me as a very rational thinker - not full of hyperbole, or obsessions with mysticism or dreams, etc. What happened to Him is exactly what I would expect of someone who took his experience seriously, and had such confidence in it that he wrote a book that people far and wide know him for. And he exhibits a very classical Christian understanding of Scripture. And, very interesting, B.W. was allowed to stay in hell long enough to see past the deception. That's a very interesting detail.

As a person whom is EXTREMELY skeptical about such related experiences, I'm inclined to believe B.W.'s testimony. But if his tale had been, "Oh, NOW, I know no one need fear death, that whatever pathway to God you choose, it's all good - Buddha, Islam, Hinduism, New Age, whatever mysticism - they're all just different paths to the same Deity" - well, I'd know something was very wrong, as that would hugely contradict Scripture. And if God revealed Himself to an unbeliever in a NDE, wouldn't you think He'd want that person to know precisely WHO He is - and that His Identity is not the multiple-choice answers we'd like to believe it is? As if a person who didn't believe in Jesus was allowed by God to have a NDE, in which He would encounter God in some uncertain form or presence, wouldn't the entire purpose of the experience be for that person to learn that JESUS is God???!!! I mean, can you imagine you have such an NDE encounter with God, only to come back to life STILL confused about His identity as Jesus? Perhaps believing Him to some DIFFERENT supposed deity?

Perhaps this is elsewhere explained to death, but
why do people claim to have died, in a "near" death
experience?