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Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:42 pm
by Kurieuo
Audacity wrote:Kurieuo wrote:If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in know what your own personal experience with Christians has been? Any particular denominations you've been around more, how you perceive them (i.e., largely wacko or actually some quite intelligent), and the like?
I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in a "Private messages" exchange, and this is as far as I will go. I will say, however, that as a guest I did go to a Catholic Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as I recall its name.
Ok, just thought you might have had experiences with Evangelicals or the like. That's all.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:48 pm
by Kurieuo
Kurieuo wrote:Audacity wrote:Kurieuo wrote:If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in know what your own personal experience with Christians has been? Any particular denominations you've been around more, how you perceive them (i.e., largely wacko or actually some quite intelligent), and the like?
I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in a "Private messages" exchange, and this is as far as I will go. I will say, however, that as a guest I did go to a Catholic Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as I recall its name.
Ok, just thought you might have had experiences with Evangelicals or the like. That's all.
Especially with your "Audacity" profile image.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:00 pm
by RickD
Christians are fruitcakes. I try not to associate with any.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:11 pm
by Audacity
Kurieuo wrote:Audacity wrote:Kurieuo wrote:If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in know what your own personal experience with Christians has been? Any particular denominations you've been around more, how you perceive them (i.e., largely wacko or actually some quite intelligent), and the like?
I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in a "Private messages" exchange, and this is as far as I will go. I will say, however, that as a guest I did go to a Catholic Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as I recall its name.
Ok, just thought you might have had experiences with Evangelicals or the like. That's all.
Got to rethinking your question. Originally, I took it as only referring to real world experiences; however, having had considerable online interactions with evangelicals and fundamentalists I've decided to reply. I'm including evangelicals under the label of "fundamentalists" in my following random thoughts.
In my online experiences I've found fundamentalists so intractably wedded to their beliefs that reason is never carried past the point of creating doubt in their faith. Should a line of reasoning appear to be leading to possible doubt they effectively shut down, which sometimes results in spouting absurdities. They seem to have arrived at their religious convictions not through reason but through an overwhelming need to achieve peace and comfort from the doubts, fears, and disquiet that fills their lives---a need I find pretty much true of all believers. They take the truth of their religion on pure faith, or as is sometimes claimed, a personal religious experience. And, of course, one can't reason a person out of a position they weren't reasoned into, which I sometimes forget and forge ahead anyway, taking issue with some of their specific assertions. This doesn't mean I feel fundamentalists are necessarily dumb, wacko, or unintelligent, only that in regard to the truths in their life they've decided that the overwhelming operative is one that stays in step with their faith; the captain of their ship. Religion is their great gate keeper that all evidence must pass before it can be considered a truth. Time and again on various online forums I've come up against the attitude that if it doesn't conform to the "Word," by default it's wrong. This need-governed philosophy is well illustrated by the old cartoon depicting the differences between science and creationism in their approaches to evidences
........................
Unfortunately, the basis of this thinking under-girds their regard of the Bible: absolutely everything it says is true, no matter how absurd. Of course cherry picking helps to get around some of the problematic issues, as does turning a blind eye to them. And if these ploys don't work there's always outright denial. While a childish gambit, some adults do fall back on it. Understandable, but hardly admirable.
Fundamentalists are a pretty closed minded group who often become lost in emotion, leaving critical reasoning behind. They also seem to be easily induced into believing whatever their leader declares to be the truth. By and large fundamentalists don't come across as independent thinkers.
As for evangelicals in particular, I give them credit for practicing what they believe, but personally hate their intrusions into my life.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:22 pm
by Storyteller
All I can say is I believe in God. Christ is my Saviour.
Im not keen on religion.
But I am keen on God.
You dont believe in God? (not that I assume you dont)
fine, your loss. my loss. Humanity and Gods loss.
I cant tell you why I believe, at 45, after looking, reading, questioning, I just do.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:23 pm
by Storyteller
audacity..
you hate the intrusion?
yet youre here.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:38 pm
by abelcainsbrother
Audacity wrote:Kurieuo wrote:Audacity wrote:Kurieuo wrote:If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in know what your own personal experience with Christians has been? Any particular denominations you've been around more, how you perceive them (i.e., largely wacko or actually some quite intelligent), and the like?
I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in a "Private messages" exchange, and this is as far as I will go. I will say, however, that as a guest I did go to a Catholic Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as I recall its name.
Ok, just thought you might have had experiences with Evangelicals or the like. That's all.
Got to rethinking your question. Originally, I took it as only referring to real world experiences; however, having had considerable online interactions with evangelicals and fundamentalists I've decided to reply. I'm including evangelicals under the label of "fundamentalists" in my following random thoughts.
In my online experiences I've found fundamentalists so intractably wedded to their beliefs that reason is never carried past the point of creating doubt in their faith. Should a line of reasoning appear to be leading to possible doubt they effectively shut down, which sometimes results in spouting absurdities. They seem to have arrived at their religious convictions not through reason but through an overwhelming need to achieve peace and comfort from the doubts, fears, and disquiet that fills their lives---a need pretty much true of all religious believers. They take the truth of their religion on pure faith, or as is sometimes claimed, a personal religious experience. And, of course, one can't reason a person out of a position they weren't reasoned into, which I sometimes forget and forge ahead anyway, taking issue with some of their specific assertions. This doesn't mean I feel fundamentalists are necessarily dumb, wacko, or unintelligent, only that they've decided that the overwhelming operative in regard to the truths in their life would be one that keeps in step with their faith; the captain of their ship. Religion is their great gate keeper that all evidence must pass before it can be considered a truth. Time and again on various online forums I've come up against the attitude that if it doesn't conform to the "Word," by default it's wrong. This need-governed philosophy is well illustrated by the old cartoon depicting the differences between science and creationism in their approaches to evidences
........................
Unfortunately, the basis of this thinking under-girds their regard of the Bible: absolutely everything it says is true, no matter how absurd. Of course cherry picking helps to get around some of the problematic issues, as does turning a blind eye to them. And if these ploys don't work there's always outright denial. While a childish gambit, some adults do fall back on it. Understandable, but hardly admirable.
Fundamentalists are a pretty closed minded group who often become lost in emotion, leaving critical reasoning behind. They also seem to be easily induced into picking up on whatever their leader declares to be the truth. By and large fundamentalists don't come across as independent thinkers. Staying in lock-step with the others being the prudent choice of action.
As for evangelicals in particular, I give them credit for practicing what they believe, but personally hate their intrusions into my life.
Whether or not you realize it or not it comes down to who you believe the most God or man. I'll choose God over man anyday as you should know man cannot be trusted to tell the truth and man has been wrong so many times throughout history so that it is pretty dumb to me to believe anything man says is true over God and add to the fact that Jesus made salvation easy as long as we put our faith in him.I believe in Jesus and do my best to live as he'd have me to because I believe in him and have faith in him,but I'm not religious. Religion imo actually gets in the way of having a relationship with God.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:11 pm
by IceMobster
Audacity wrote:I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in our "Private messages" exchange.
Care to share?
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:04 pm
by Audacity
Storyteller wrote:audacity..
you hate the intrusion?
yet youre here.
By posting here invitation is implied, hence no intrusion.
abelcainsbrother wrote:Whether or not you realize it or not it comes down to who you believe the most God or man.
I'm agnostic, so your presumption that god would be a possible object of my belief is moot.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:31 pm
by Audacity
IceMobster wrote:Audacity wrote:I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in our "Private messages" exchange.
Care to share?
Sure.
"Having had bad experiences from sharing the particulars of my life online, I'm keeping this short and rather cryptic.
My father was irreligious. My mother was raised Mormon, and I was told I was baptized or blessed or something into the Mormon faith when I was an infant. From what I've heard from Mormons this wouldn't have been possible, so who knows. As a kid I began attending the neighborhood Lutheran church (My mother did not. She was not a religious person) and was baptized and confirmed into the faith. After my confirmation I attended church less and less until I stopped altogether. When in high school my cousin gave me a copy of Bertrand Russell's book,
Why I am not a Christian, which made a lot of sense to me, and almost immediately turned me into an agnostic/atheist. Since then I've settled into being an agnostic. My major in college was in the natural sciences, with a good dollop of philosophy. As a hobby of sorts I wrote a heavily researched book concerning the natural sciences that was published by a prominent publisher here in the USA, which did very nicely thank you (I won't reveal the title). Since then I've retired from my profession."
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:11 pm
by abelcainsbrother
It does not matter if you are atheist or agnostic you still either believe man or God. I choose God because man cannot be trusted to tell the truth.We either have revelation from God or speculation from man.You may focus on all the times Christians were wrong,but you're overlooking how wrong non-Christians were. It makes no difference whether you believe in God or not,man cannot be trusted like God can.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:15 pm
by Audacity
abelcainsbrother wrote:You may focus on all the times Christians were wrong,but you're overlooking how wrong non-Christians were.
If Kurieuo had asked me about non-Christians I would have addressed non-Christians, but he didn't, so I didn't. Make sense?
.
Re: Jesus Camp
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:12 pm
by Kurieuo
Audacity wrote:abelcainsbrother wrote:You may focus on all the times Christians were wrong,but you're overlooking how wrong non-Christians were.
If Kurieuo had asked me about non-Christians I would have addressed non-Christians, but he didn't, so I didn't. Make sense?
.
Thanks Aud.
I did ask you for your comments and appreciate your reply.
Just watched Jesus Camp last night and it some way it reminds me of why I just didn't like churches for a while, although that isn't saying much about my dislikes. It's too hard to go into here before I start my work day, but I just saw some heat against you and wanted to thank you.
While I didn't like churches growing up, in other ways, it makes me thankful of the evangelical pentecostal baptist church I did find a couple years ago, that I had good experiences, before I stopped attending due to changes of circumstance. Such had quite a good balance, probably in large part due to the many different pastors and leaders.
If you look up "unsafe churches" there are whole generation of these Christians arguing and defending their not going to church, because they're not emotionally safe. Understand some have
been through and been hurt by other Christians in churches via all the church games that go on. So it's like a raw nerve, and a lot is normally people being people rather than anything necessarily Christian.
So the sensibilities of some here may not be because such are annoyed by being "caught out" and an "
ohh, you got us pinned!" right? I mean if that was your intention or something the like. Rather, to some it's seen as a rather low blow. If you'd actually been hurt in churches, then you'd have a different level of understanding about how such can raise a lot of pain.
The idiosyncrasies seen and which you've encountered in some others, really has little to do with Christ or his teachings, and more to do with people and perhaps theological veins they're attracted to. There's more things going on in the film than just the characterisation of "Evangelical Pentecostals". I'm hoping to give a more detailed analysis of such things because I think it is good to get into.
As for your own experiences with such Christians... I wouldn't be surprised if those who screamed the loudest when you poked your stoker into the fire, that such actually drowned out you hearing any Christian voices of reason.
