Evidence for God from Science

Nicki wrote:

IceMobster wrote:I did not want to multipost, so here it is:

Nicki wrote:What do you mean by catharsis? Just being nosy.

I find it hard to understand prayer as well, but the Bible definitely says God wants us to pray. One aspect of it is spiritual warfare - in prayer we're actually doing battle with the forces of darkness. That's about all I can think of, sorry, but I'm sure some others will have lots to say

Catharsis as in sudden realization of the existence of God and interest in Him through prayer, Eucharist, work in the local church and whatnot.

Ah, it usually means some kind of emotional release.

My apologies. In my language, it emphasizes on the point of purification of spirit and soul.

Nicki wrote:

IceMobster wrote:Eh... Pray because Bible says so. And we are battling the forces of darkness through prayer. Lol. Not only missed the topic questions, but the reasons given are, meh... A satanist could say that Satan wants them to do rituals. That way, they are battling the forces of darkness!

You mean, they'd think they were on the good side? Ephesians 6:12 - 'For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against... the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.'

Obviously. Do I really need to go find a Satanist book which quotes the same thing, in nice poetry, stating how you should do rituals to disrupt your enemies in primarily spiritual sense?

Nicki wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Nicki wrote:I disagree that prayer is never to affect God's providence, but it sure is about relationship with him first and foremost. I thought some more about why God wants us to pray - here are some basic principles about God -

- he loves us and wants the best for us;
- he's all-knowing and knows what's best for us;
- he's all-powerful and can bring about anything he wants for us.

Given these principles, we can trust God completely, but he wants us to show that trust by praying and asking him for things. I think there's a limit to how much he'll interfere in the life of someone who hasn't given their life to him, and therefore isn't praying to him - if we haven't entrusted ourselves to him, we're not really his to help.

What do the 3 principles of yours about God have to do with the topic? He can be (and is) all of that regardless of prayer.
Where in the Bible does it say He WANTS us to ask him for things?
The last paragraph implies we do not entrust ourselves to Him if we don't pray. I disagree. But, then again, do you consider prayer what Mallz explained or do you consider prayer as in reciting prayers? If the former, I do not disagree.

Matt 7:8a - 'Ask and it will be given to you'

Mark 11:24 - 'Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.'

Phil 4:6 - 'Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.'

James 4:2b-3 - You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.'

Yes, I see prayer in general as Mallz explained it. Prayers to recite can be used sometimes if they're heartfelt, but it's like talking to anyone - you don't need to recite something to communicate with a friend; you just say what you want to say. Regarding entrusting - I think it's more the other way around - if we don't entrust ourselves to him (that is, we're not Christians) then we don't pray - not to the true God anyway.

Oh, true God? How many true Gods are there? Every religion claims it is their God who is the best and true one. They also have spiritual & sacred texts to prove so...

Nicki wrote:

IceMobster wrote:Anyway, here come the questions... When you pray with the intention for God to affect you or your environment, you are changing His will, are you not? If you are not, how do you know that your prayer and changing of yourself and/or your environment is the part of His will? Lastly, what makes you think such an outcome(basically, any outcome) would be closer to His will than some other outcome?

Mallz wrote:We do not effect what our Father will or will not do. To do so, would be to change Him; Him reacting to us, which would make Him not God. We have many, many choices in each decision (action or movement). And they are existent by Him. He gives us the choices. If I choose a choice that is in His will, I am moving into His will. And picking a choice that is better for me, and everyone, than if it were a choice not in his will. He is ready to give if it's done through the relationship. Outside of the relationship, there is no communication besides dwelling in existence. We are to interact with Existence and Its expressions. And are made to by expressing Himself to existence. We are the wife.

Affect*, not effect. Effect is an end result. Affect is beforehand. Think of cause --> effect.
Totally agreed.
Lost you on the non-coloured parts. Which choice is in His will? All of them? If so, how can you say you ever moved out of His will? If not so, it would mean He isn't perfect and that isn't possible, right?
Furthermore, "And picking a choice that is better for me, and everyone, than if it were a choice not in his will." I don't understand this at all. Picking a choice that is better for me and people around me than if it were a choice not in his will whaaaaaaaaaaat????

"He is ready to give if it's done through the relationship." Implies He usually doesn't give? Give what exactly? Love, compassion, what? Atheists got it too, and they don't pray. What, then?

Give what we ask for - not everything we want necessarily, but what's good for us to have.

Not all choices we make can be in God's will - like sinful ones.

I don't have all the answers about prayer, but I know the Bible says God wants us to pray for things, so things can actually be changed through prayer, and that he knows what's best for us, as we know better than our children what's best for them (and he knows perfectly, unlike us parents). I do think God's answered many prayers for me - like my husband finding a job quickly early last year, then when he had problems at that job, everything working out well. Sure, it could have just happened anyway, but the Bible says to not worry about anything but pray about everything, so that's what I try to do. Obeying God. I often feel privileged to really be in touch with the greatest power in the universe when I pray, even if things don't always happen the way I want. What we want is not necessarily what's best.

Anyone else got any great stories of answered prayer?

Yeah, so you basically say, I do it because Bible says so. I find that unwise. Anyway, thank you for the clarification.

I've heard all of the atheist talking points against prayer but there is just one thing that atheists refuse to listen to and acknowledge and it is this.
I've Got A Testimony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGwtyFQrzb0

Really, even 'effective' prayer (or at least most of it) can be 'explained away' or shrugged off...

If someone is really blind to the workings of prayer, they will not see. In the gospels, people witnessed miracles and still held onto unbelief.

abelcainsbrother wrote:I've heard all of the atheist talking points against prayer but there is just one thing that atheists refuse to listen to and acknowledge and it is this.
I've Got A Testimony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGwtyFQrzb0

Care to share your testimony of how you know prayer works in concrete examples?

Nessa wrote:Really, even 'effective' prayer (or at least most of it) can be 'explained away' or shrugged off...

If someone is really blind to the workings of prayer, they will not see.

Matthew 13:13-17
Well, make me see then, will you?

Raise your voice. Stop that blood eagle sacrifice!

Nessa wrote:In the gospels, people witnessed miracles and still held onto unbelief.

where?
Are you alluding unfaithful Thomas?
Nevertheless, how do you know a certain miracle is the product of a prayer? That is, if you say so. Because I am not sure what you are getting at with this sentence.

IceMobster wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:I've heard all of the atheist talking points against prayer but there is just one thing that atheists refuse to listen to and acknowledge and it is this.
I've Got A Testimony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGwtyFQrzb0

Care to share your testimony of how you know prayer works in concrete examples?

Nessa wrote:Really, even 'effective' prayer (or at least most of it) can be 'explained away' or shrugged off...

If someone is really blind to the workings of prayer, they will not see.

Matthew 13:13-17
Well, make me see then, will you?

Raise your voice. Stop that blood eagle sacrifice!

Nessa wrote:In the gospels, people witnessed miracles and still held onto unbelief.

where?
Are you alluding unfaithful Thomas?
Nevertheless, how do you know a certain miracle is the product of a prayer? That is, if you say so. Because I am not sure what you are getting at with this sentence.

John 12:37

That is just one scripture reference, but others said his works were of satan.. Its not always as simple as some would believe

'Give me a miracle, then I'll believe'
Thats not always true

Thats what Im trying say..whether its prayer or miracles whatever, you are always gonna get someone writing it off as something other than God..

A person can want to see something 'work' but their minds and hearts can be closed to the evidence. Some dont even realise they are blinded to the truth.

Nessa wrote:Some dont even realise they are blinded to the truth.

Do I fall into this category?

IceMobster wrote:

Nessa wrote:Some dont even realise they are blinded to the truth.

Do I fall into this category?

Only you can truly seek the answer to that for yourself

And you already know what my personal answer would be if Im a christian and you are not

Reminds me of a story my theology professor told me about. Basically, a man went to confess his sins to a priest and after he had done so, the priest said things totally irrelevant to the "topic" of his confessor. Not something the confessor should have heard, not because they were wrong, but totally irrelevant.

"Only you can seek the answer."
"It's God's will."
"insert-some-other-similar-thing-I-can't-remember-now"

Eh...
Your answer would be that I am blind, I reckon.
Oh well, I suppose I'll be unfaithful Thomas forever.

IceMobster wrote:Reminds me of a story my theology professor told me about. Basically, a man went to confess his sins to a priest and after he had done so, the priest said things totally irrelevant to the "topic" of his confessor. Not something the confessor should have heard, not because they were wrong, but totally irrelevant.

"Only you can seek the answer."
"It's God's will."
"insert-some-other-similar-thing-I-can't-remember-now"

Eh...
Your answer would be that I am blind, I reckon.
Oh well, I suppose I'll be unfaithful Thomas forever.

My answer is not what it should ultimately be about.
But feel free to ignore it if you see someone elses answer that is more what you are after.

Hey, Ice. Sorry such a late response. Been real busy, then sick and works been draining. So without further ado!

IceMobster wrote: But that makes prayer redundant. If His will is for that person to die of cancer, the person will die of it no matter what you wish for through prayer.

I thought that for a while. Then I realized it's about living in His world in this one. You don't see how He moves if He's not apart of your life, unless 'lucky' circumstances arise. Or he starts knocking really hard. Then you start paying attention. And then you see how things change when you make Him a part of your life. Then you realize that you can direct your life, and others around you positively through His will. Through your own will, or another persons fails. It's a part of letting go and realizing it's Him that directs the goodness and you can ride it. And the more you explore Him and our world with Him, the more you see you were made to be: Genesis 1:26-28
The opportunity in every situation is always there. His options are always the best (and most fun, joyful and wholesome). By being with Him, learning Him and learning how He communicates with us in this age we can exercise who and what we are meant to be. And realize this is just a glimpse of what reality is intended for. We are to exist to be His light to existence.
It is never His will to inflict harm. But He uses the world we've messed up to bring about the best good for everyone involved with what we could relate to an eternal perspective. The person may die of cancer. And maybe He will at least be a part of it. Effect the person and those the person effects to bring that person and those around into His kingdom. Into eternity.

Oh, He is real. There is no doubt in that. My desires? I desire to know how EXACTLY did He answer your prayers? Also, what prayers? Praying like what you mentioned here (as in talking with an endearing friend) or praying as in reciting Our Father, who art in Heaven?
Lastly, what do you consider for a God's response?

Oh man. What to even grasp to write? The only prayer I'll recite is the Our Father. Usually every day in the shower even when I'm feeling distant to at least give Him due diligence of acknowledgement in sincerely saying that prayer. But most my 'prayer' consists of talking. And He answers many ways. I'm not very good at talking about myself so this is hard to answer. Think of taking a friend (YHWH) along with you always who will always give you your space and is always ready to 'jump' back in (and was always listening and there, anyways). And sometimes He directs thoughts. Sometimes good ideas pop into my mind. Sometimes He does something that shouldn't happen for sake of mercy (my patients do best when I remain with Him). Sometimes He directs time and everything, each event and person in it to such an extent time doesn't exist. Sometimes He directly answers my prayers through the things I pray about happening (sometimes they're really dumb and He decides to do out of s**ts and giggles). I don't know what example to choose for a concrete response. Help me refine my focus.

Byblos wrote:Prayers work 100% of the time when they align with God's will and none of the time when they don't. It's that simple. When I pray my intention is for God to affect the change in me (or others, but never in HIM), to bring about an outcome that is closer to His will.

No offense. All I heard was a bunch of bulls#it. (I'm being serious and honest, bro. Sorry if that offended you or anyone else.)
IceMobster: I don't find it simple at all.
Anyway, here come the questions... When you pray with the intention for God to affect you or your environment, you are changing His will, are you not? If you are not, how do you know that your prayer and changing of yourself and/or your environment is the part of His will? Lastly, what makes you think such an outcome(basically, any outcome) would be closer to His will than some other outcome?

It's the opposite. You pray for His will to be brought into our world. We are made to bring it into this world. We bring either light or darkness.
You have to learn Him to know what His will is. Part of exercising a relationship.

Mallz wrote:We do not effect what our Father will or will not do. To do so, would be to change Him; Him reacting to us, which would make Him not God. We have many, many choices in each decision (action or movement). And they are existent by Him. He gives us the choices. If I choose a choice that is in His will, I am moving into His will. And picking a choice that is better for me, and everyone, than if it were a choice not in his will. He is ready to give if it's done through the relationship. Outside of the relationship, there is no communication besides dwelling in existence. We are to interact with Existence and Its expressions. And are made to by expressing Himself to existence. We are the wife.

Lost you on the non-coloured parts. Which choice is in His will? All of them? If so, how can you say you ever moved out of His will? If not so, it would mean He isn't perfect and that isn't possible, right?
Furthermore, "And picking a choice that is better for me, and everyone, than if it were a choice not in his will." I don't understand this at all. Picking a choice that is better for me and people around me than if it were a choice not in his will whaaaaaaaaaaat????

We, among others, are self-determining creatures. We can't create. But we can harness and effect. We can operate how we are intended to, with and through His will, or we can operate how we or others choose. Problem is, any other choice but Him is counter to Reality. Further problems arise...
Existence has been altered by us and continues to be degraded. The only way to bring life is to harness Life.

"He is ready to give if it's done through the relationship." Implies He usually doesn't give? Give what exactly? Love, compassion, what? Atheists got it too, and they don't pray. What, then?

Life and all it entails. <-very loaded statement. Things operate here and are a reflection of Him. We have laws that properly govern our realty to keep it in function as it's meant to. We, too also operate with the physical and spiritual as we are both. We are capable of many things, including love and compassion and when we exercise those we go closer to His Reality. Just because someone doesn't believe in Him, doesn't mean they aren't capable of exercising much love and compassion among other traits.

off hand comment from whats been going on:

Do I really need to go find a Satanist book which quotes the same thing, in nice poetry, stating how you should do rituals to disrupt your enemies in primarily spiritual sense?

How do you know this?!

Mallz wrote:.

I've read it all and I'm having a feeling as if I didn't read anything.

Oh well... You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.

How do you know this?!

Hehe. Let us just say that I am following more forums and not just one.

It's more of a satisfaction to my curiosity(I love learning about religions in general). As to see how other religions and beliefs interpret/find/praise the One(As (st.) Justin put it: "All people are seeds of Logos").

I've read it all and I'm having a feeling as if I didn't read anything.

If you say so The opportunity was there to be presented with more concrete answers. Oh well.