Evidence for God from Science

Hi Kurieuo,

I believe the mind is a very important thing to keep sharp, and it is good to read books on the Christian experience ... it is good to read books on many things. But sometimes in reading books on spiritual experiences, we see what others have experienced and in what way they have experienced them, and we take that as our "pattern," and feel pressure and anxiety when we do not have their same experience. Then we get frustrated because we feel like every word we are saying about Christ is something we don't really believe, that we are being "false." We can't put our finger on what the problem is ... We are saying the right words, but they sound hollow ... they don't meet people's deep needs. Of course we are being false ... we are patterning ourselves after someone else, and mouthing someone else's words and trying to live their experiences. We are speaking of things that we don't truly understand ourselves, so of course our words come back to us void. And our lives never truly change. That's why you see some Christians going to church faithfully one month, giving testimony to Jesus in their lives and the next month, in the clubs wearing revealing outfits and getting drunk. A tree that produces two kinds of fruit is an abnormality.

So, Jesus Freak, for what it's worth ... I love reading books, I think they are important. And I love to fellowship with people about spiritual matters, hearing their experiences and get encouraged ... But in the final analysis, you are unique, you need to have your own experiences, this is your journey and you will only find your answers within yourself ...

seedling wrote:I believe the mind is a very important thing to keep sharp, and it is good to read books on the Christian experience ... it is good to read books on many things. But sometimes in reading books on spiritual experiences, we see what others have experienced and in what way they have experienced them, and we take that as our "pattern," and feel pressure and anxiety when we do not have their same experience.

I'm saying to check out the apologetical section of a Christian bookstore, not the "Christian Living," or "Spirituality" section. Discover about the rational side to Christianity, rather than focusing in on a faith based on experience and feelings. Such will create a more wholesome Christianity, and bring you closer to God as your faith grows.

Kurieuo.

August, I believe the bible was written by men who were seeking God, who were inspired to seek a "god" because they were afraid in a hostile world, because they were puzzled by many things that they wanted explained, because some sought a deeper meaning to their existence. These writers realized pertinent human truths. They communicated their wisdom, hope and experiences. Over much time. In different languages. From a different culture. The essence is there. Do I believe every word of the bible is directly from God, or from men "inspired" by God? No.

Do you want to offer some proof here? How do you know the Bible was not divinely inpsired? Did you speak to the men who wrote it? How do you know their motivation and intent?

"Do you want to offer some proof here? How do you know the Bible was not divinely inpsired? Did you speak to the men who wrote it? How do you know their motivation and intent?"

Well ... it was never proven to me that it IS divinely inspired. And it resembles other myths and legends that have been documented by other cultures. Adam and Eve. The flood. God reigning fire on the earth from the heavens ... the "virgin" birth and the big deal of Mary conceiving without the taint of sex ... the Trinity ... resurrection. Each of these stories has "pagan" counterparts. Christianity fit in so well with the Roman empire's pagan beliefs that all they had to do was change the names and they had a personage to fit into every deity and belief that they had. What do you think Christmas and Easter are? Nothing but pagan celebrations, let's get real here. The tree, the lights, the eggs, the rabbit, the gifts, Santa Claus. Life continuing after we die is a theme in most religions. It is what man is most afraid of ... and God being on a certain group's side is also central to a religion ... do this this and this and the Big Guy will be on your side. In war, in life, after death, whatever.

How do you know the Qu'ran isn't divinely inspired? Have you read it lately? Have you ever read the writings of Lao Tzu? what I am saying is ... it is only an individual's belief that labels any book divinely inspired. If you sincerely believe this of the bible because you have seen something for yourself, then I am glad for you.

"I'm saying to check out the apologetical section of a Christian bookstore, not the "Christian Living," or "Spirituality" section."

What does "apologetical" mean? Defending the Christian faith and beliefs?

Well ... it was never proven to me that it IS divinely inspired.

You made the assertion that it was not divinely inspired, you provide the evidence. Don't turn this around now, if you make a statement, either back it up with evidence or admit your statement is false, and you cannot prove that it was not divinely inspired.

Nothing but pagan celebrations, let's get real here. The tree, the lights, the eggs, the rabbit, the gifts, Santa Claus.

You are both right and wrong here. You are right that those symbols have nothing to do with Christianity, but you are very wrong if you believe that Christians celebrate with those as an expression of their faith.

How do you know the Qu'ran isn't divinely inspired? Have you read it lately? Have you ever read the writings of Lao Tzu? what I am saying is ... it is only an individual's belief that labels any book divinely inspired. If you sincerely believe this of the bible because you have seen something for yourself, then I am glad for you.

You answer my questions first. Provide irrefutable proof that the Bible is not divinely inspired, the answer to that question necessarily precedes any answer I give here.

"August, I believe the bible was written by men who were seeking God, . . . Do I believe every word of the bible is directly from God, or from men "inspired" by God? No."

Hi August,

I think the key word here is "belief." I don't believe the bible is divinely inspired. I did not say unequivocably that it is not. All that I have realized over the years about the bible and all that I have read and experienced brings me to the conclusion that it is not so much "God inspired" as I once thought it was. But this is just my belief. No one can proof that any book is "God inspired."

So you are turning your belief into a general statement implying a truth which according to you can never be known?

But August, isn't that what Christians do? Isn't that what all religions do? My belief is a truth for ME ... from what I have discovered. I can share it with people because thank goodness we live in a country where I can speak what I believe. There is either a recognition inside of them that what I say may be true or there isn't. I did my research ... I came up with conclusions for ME. It didn't happen overnight ... I was brainwashed very young to believe that the bible was the absolute truth from God's mouth. And when your mind is given parameters to think within, it doesn't venture out too much. Your mind becomes inflexible. You can't see any way but what was taught you. You feel a certain comfort level with it, and anything that is presented that is not in accordance with your belief will be dealt with, not objectively, but in a way that you can discredit it or bend it so you can go on believing what makes you feel safe and comfortable.

seedling wrote:But August, isn't that what Christians do? Isn't that what all religions do? My belief is a truth for ME ... from what I have discovered. I can share it with people because thank goodness we live in a country where I can speak what I believe.

Errr... I think I see a little something I'm very disagreeable with, that is, Christianity is true for me, but not for others. The thing is I believe Christianity to be true, and so it is true for all. My belief isn't just a preference like a certain flavour of icecream.

So because I believe Christianity is true, I really do believe Christ was God, lived, died, and rose from the dead, and that this message is applicable to everyone because of the implications which come out of such truth.

Kurieuo.

But August, isn't that what Christians do? Isn't that what all religions do? My belief is a truth for ME ... from what I have discovered.

No, that is not what Christians do. How do you know that your belief is true for you? What gave you the ability to judge the truth of your belief? What lead you to believe the Bible not to be true?

August wrote:No, that is not what Christians do. How do you know that your belief is true for you? What gave you the ability to judge the truth of your belief? What lead you to believe the Bible not to be true?

Don't you know...? If there is something you don't want to be true, or you feel isn't true, then you can just believe something else more appealing. For example, if I jump off a cliff it'd be cool if I could fly, so why not believe that? Infact, I think I'll make such a belief true for ME.

* Sorry, feeling sarcastic right now *

Kurieuo.

I jus want to follow this to a logical conclusion, that's all. I find it amazing that people reject the Bible and Christianity using Biblical presuppositions, and then claim there is no truth in the Bible!

Kurieo writes: "Errr... I think I see a little something I'm very disagreeable with, that is, Christianity is true for me, but not for others. The thing is I believe Christianity to be true, and so it is true for all. My belief isn't just a preference like a certain flavour of icecream."

I write: "Errr... I think I see a little something I'm very disagreeable with, that is, Islam is true for me, but not for others. The thing is I believe Islam to be true, and so it is true for all. My belief isn't just a preference like a certain flavour of icecream."

So what is the difference between these two sentences? It is your belief verses mine.

August writes:

"How do you know that your belief is true for you?"

Because it answers questions I had that never were answered before.

"What gave you the ability to judge the truth of your belief?"

Because I was created with a mind and an ability to think things through to a conclusion. I come to a conclusion, but am open to drop it if other evidence is presented that rings true to me. My mind is not shackled with concepts that restrain it ... I can think "out of the box." I can grow.

"What lead you to believe the Bible not to be true?"

I did not say the bible did not contain truth. It contains much truth. I simply do not take it literally, and I allow for the fact that the OT was written thousand of years ago by men who perhaps borrowed ideas and concepts from myths and legends that preceded them, (and history is written by the victors) and the NT was written 2000 years ago by men, of a certain cultural persuasion that interpreted the things they experienced through their own cultural bias and in different languages. And then the decision what books to include, what books not to include ... why should I trust the decisions that were made way back when as to what was "divinely inspired" and should be put in the bible, and what wasn't and should be left out? And the different translations ... some of these translations can change the whole meaning of a sentence. That's why I don't believe the bible literally ... but I can witness to it's essence, it's spirit.

Also, August ...

I would consider changing my little message there "atheists are morons." There may be some truth seeking atheists on the board, and to be honest, it's not really a message that touches the heart or inspires confidence. It's kind of hostile... but, that's just my belief ...