Evidence for God from Science

Not sure I'd agree.

RickD wrote:Not sure I'd agree.

You have the right to be wrong.

But seriously, I don't see what there is to disagree. The job of the praise team or choir or whatever is to lead the congregation in worship.

Now, I could actually push it a whole lot further and say that people living in open sin ought not be permitted to fellowship with the congregation. Plenty of Scriptural support for that, but who would want to be unpopular . . .

We are ALL sinners so if being in sin voids a person's ability to teach...well...

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:Not sure I'd agree.

You have the right to be wrong.

But seriously, I don't see what there is to disagree. The job of the praise team or choir or whatever is to lead the congregation in worship.

Now, I could actually push it a whole lot further and say that people living in open sin ought not be permitted to fellowship with the congregation. Plenty of Scriptural support for that, but who would want to be unpopular . . .

I've seen some worship teams where only the leader is leading, and the rest of the team is just following along like the congregation. Don't want too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

Then I guess you'd have to define "open sin" as opposed to some other kind of sin. It's all open to God. So in that case, nobody would be permitted to fellowship.

And this is where people get too spiritual for their own good in my view. The Bible is very explicit about people in sin being handled privately, then with a witness, then before the church. The Bible is explicit that we ought not fellowship with believers living in unrepentant sin. "With such a one, do not even eat." We don't have the right to ignore church discipline out of some false sense of humility . . . "oh well everybody sins so I'm just going to ask you nicely to stop and let everything continue as before." That's garbage, and it's dangerous to the body of Christ.

Jac3510 wrote:And this is where people get too spiritual for their own good in my view. The Bible is very explicit about people in sin being handled privately, then with a witness, then before the church. The Bible is explicit that we ought not fellowship with believers living in unrepentant sin. "With such a one, do not even eat." We don't have the right to ignore church discipline out of some false sense of humility . . . "oh well everybody sins so I'm just going to ask you nicely to stop and let everything continue as before." That's garbage, and it's dangerous to the body of Christ.

Unrepentant? How are you defining repent?

Again, what is "open sin"? And how is it different than sin that's not "open"?

RickD wrote:Unrepentant? How are you defining repent?

As changing your mind, of course. An unrepentant sin is sin you haven't changed your mind about -- sin you are still living openly in.

Again, what is "open sin"? And how is it different than sin that's not "open"?

You tell me. What do you make of 1 Cor 5:11?

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one."

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:Unrepentant? How are you defining repent?

As changing your mind, of course. An unrepentant sin is sin you haven't changed your mind about -- sin you are still living openly in.

Again, what is "open sin"? And how is it different than sin that's not "open"?

You tell me. What do you make of 1 Cor 5:11?

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one."

And how, pray tell are we supposed to know who is or isn't on that naughty list, if they don't share it with us? That list could be any of us, or any among us.

Let's just kick out all the sinners, and God'l sort em out!

Good point!

*gets eraser out and removes 1 Cor 5:11*

Jac3510 wrote:Good point!

*gets eraser out and removes 1 Cor 5:11*

Again,

How do we know who's on that list, in order to not associate with them? Do we call the fruit inspector? Perhaps call Ted Cruz's father to pray for an anointing?

You're asking an epistemological question rather than dealing with the actual substance of the text. Whether you intend it or not, you are suggesting that because the verse is unenforceable that we should ignore it. Now, I've been very clear. This couple is obviously living in sexual immorality. It's by admission. This is very easy for me.

You're the one telling me this doesn't apply, that we're all sinners, that we can't judge. So I'm asking YOU how YOU apply that verse.

Jac3510 wrote:You're asking an epistemological question rather than dealing with the actual substance of the text. Whether you intend it or not, you are suggesting that because the verse is unenforceable that we should ignore it. Now, I've been very clear. This couple is obviously living in sexual immorality. It's by admission. This is very easy for me.

You're the one telling me this doesn't apply, that we're all sinners, that we can't judge. So I'm asking YOU how YOU apply that verse.

I read that verse just as it says. That the Corinthian Christians were to exclude those believers. Now, you may be able to make the argument that WE should exclude believers today, who openly admit they commit those sins. But you'd need to make that argument from another verse. That one is talking about Corinthians.

Aha. So that verse only applied to the Corinthians.

Wow. Well, I suppose we've gotten to the root of our hermeneutical differences.

Jac3510 wrote:Aha. So that verse only applied to the Corinthians.

Wow. Well, I suppose we've gotten to the root of our hermeneutical differences.

You need to take the verse for what it actually says.

Wow, did not think this thread would create much interest...

Look over these verses...

John 4:7,16,17,18,28,29,30,39

So as long as the woman at the well was not on the praise team in the temple, then it was okay to bring many townspeople to Christ made while she was still shacked up with one not her husband?

So did Jesus commit a grave error here?

Anyways, back to the current direction of thread regarding overt and non-overt sins...

I had to kick another person of a ministry team. This man was intelligent and educated. However, he thought himself to be the correcter of the church and would straighten out all error. He could preach and teach well. The problem was this, by use of his intellect he would brow beat others into submission. He offended many. He actually went into the oneness camp without my awareness he had. He hid this well. Then one day he began to be Heck Bent to correct all the errors of their ways while on a mission trip. In his eyes, he was not sinning. Several of us tried to help him get over his pride but he rejected us. So, he was let go...

Moral of this I learned is that there are many ministers and people within the church in some sort of leadership role who are blind to the overt sin that others plainly see. Pride, a haughty spirit, selfish ambition, Pharisee-ism are overt sins that those afflicted with do not see.

The other thing I have learned the hard way is to learn to judge with discernment. Often, mercy trumps judgement.

Another situation, new covert to Christ refused to leave an affair before divorce was finalized. The person would not listen to our pleas and comments as to why he person's prayers were not answered. Still nothing and the relationship went on. Then, one day the individual got it - a Holy Ghost spanking - and stopped (and stopped the affair too). It took time, patience, caring, mercy and lots of prayer. This person was not involved in any ministry position, however, this one was willing to change while the other man I mentioned did not.

In my opinion, we need to be wise and discerning in situations like this. If Jesus was not, then the woman at the well would never have influenced people to come to Jesus.

Jesus rebuke the Pharisees openly for their blindness, deafness, and misuse of the bible. Often overt sins are not overt to those so blinded. People, all of us, can hide sins really good from the sight of others but God knows the heart.

Proverbs 3:5-8 is good advise...
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