Evidence for God from Science

Sometimes I feel "grace" Christians are so adamant and vehement in their grace-based theology, that they turn grace itself into something they clobber people on the head with who'd desire out of their love for God to do what is right. Any smell of "works" raises reg flags. Which is why I interjected to test the waters with you SoCalExile.

This is not saying that such has a part in justifying us before God on judgement day, such only comes through Christ. However, it does have a part of being more and more conformed to Christ in whom we've been grafted.

Kurieuo wrote:Sometimes I feel "grace" Christians are so adamant and vehement in their grace-based theology, that they turn grace itself into something they clobber people on the head with who'd desire out of their love for God to do what is right. Any smell of "works" raises reg flags. Which is why I interjected to test the waters with you SoCalExile.

This is not saying that such has a part in justifying us before God on judgement day, such only comes through Christ. However, it does have a part of being more and more conformed to Christ in whom we've been grafted.

And I've found that in discussions about a Free Grace pov, or let's just call it a "saved by grace, through faith, without works" pov, it inevitably comes down to someone outside the saved by grace camp, claiming that we are saying that believers SHOULD just sit around on the couch and watch tv all the time because we can't lose salvation.

Then we always have to clarify that we are saying that good works have no part in gaining or keeping salvation. Not that good works don't have a part in being a disciple of Christ.

Nobody from the free grace/grace through faith side is saying that a believer shouldn't do good works.

Saved by grace through faith, DOES NOT mean "don't do good works because you're already saved, so just sit around and watch tv".

As is so common with those arguing against the free grace position, they just don't understand what the position is. They're arguing against a straw man.

RickD wrote:You guys are arguing semantics. Kurieuo is saying that as believers, we should choose not to sin. He's not saying we need to "turn from sin" to keep from losing salvation.

You both agree that "turning from sin" has no part in salvation.

He needs to pay attention to context; Billy Graham is an evangelist.

SoCal, you had ample chance to dialogue and clarify but you dug in.

Rick, I'm outside everyone's camp except my own. You should know that by now.

And Graham once said Muslims could be saved. Loosely paraphrasing.

Kurieuo wrote:SoCal, you had ample chance to dialogue and clarify but you dug in.

So it's my fault you didn't bother to pay attention to what about Graham I was calling attention to (his evangelistic message, which is another gospel, which is not another) before you assumed I was talking about discipleship and tried to call me out on something you didn't understand?

Please spare me the sanctimony.

Kurieuo wrote:Sometimes I feel "grace" Christians are so adamant and vehement in their grace-based theology, that they turn grace itself into something they clobber people on the head with who'd desire out of their love for God to do what is right. Any smell of "works" raises reg flags. Which is why I interjected to test the waters with you SoCalExile.

This is not saying that such has a part in justifying us before God on judgement day, such only comes through Christ. However, it does have a part of being more and more conformed to Christ in whom we've been grafted.

We're talking about Billy Graham, who preached that we must "turn from sin" TO be saved.

You're trying to clobber me based on YOUR assumptions.

Kurieuo,
Here it is in black and white, from Billy Graham's website. This shows the context you didn't bother to ask about.
http://peacewithgod.net/should-not-perish/

We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness. Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance. Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty. We suggest praying the following prayer to accept Christ as your Savior:

Edit---

This one is even more blatant. When asked "What do I have to do to go to heaven?"

What do I have to do to go to heaven?

God isn’t waiting to judge you. God isn’t waiting to condemn you. He’s waiting to receive you with mercy, with love, with open arms, and forgive all your sins. Will you come to Him? Will you turn from your sin and promise to live for Him? He can transform your life—and you can look forward to eternity with Him in heaven.

SoCalExile wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:SoCal, you had ample chance to dialogue and clarify but you dug in.

So it's my fault you didn't bother to pay attention to what about Graham I was calling attention to (his evangelistic message, which is another gospel, which is not another) before you assumed I was talking about discipleship and tried to call me out on something you didn't understand?

Please spare me the sanctimony.

No, I paid attention. Your statement was open ended.

SoCalExile wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Sometimes I feel "grace" Christians are so adamant and vehement in their grace-based theology, that they turn grace itself into something they clobber people on the head with who'd desire out of their love for God to do what is right. Any smell of "works" raises reg flags. Which is why I interjected to test the waters with you SoCalExile.

This is not saying that such has a part in justifying us before God on judgement day, such only comes through Christ. However, it does have a part of being more and more conformed to Christ in whom we've been grafted.

We're talking about Billy Graham, who preached that we must "turn from sin" TO be saved.

You're trying to clobber me based on YOUR assumptions.

Clobber you? Geesh grow some skin.
Respect for you has all but dropped after what have been good posts highlighting grace.
Perhaps show some of that by which you are saved SoCal. When you saw what I was getting at, a simple response was all that was needed qualifying such a statement within the context of salvation, but you dug in. To me that shows something more.

IceMobster wrote:

JButler wrote:"why worry about the end of the world, because when you die that is the end of the world for you."

Basically paraphrased Augustine of Hippo's thought.

Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

Kurieuo wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Sometimes I feel "grace" Christians are so adamant and vehement in their grace-based theology, that they turn grace itself into something they clobber people on the head with who'd desire out of their love for God to do what is right. Any smell of "works" raises reg flags. Which is why I interjected to test the waters with you SoCalExile.

This is not saying that such has a part in justifying us before God on judgement day, such only comes through Christ. However, it does have a part of being more and more conformed to Christ in whom we've been grafted.

We're talking about Billy Graham, who preached that we must "turn from sin" TO be saved.

You're trying to clobber me based on YOUR assumptions.

Clobber you? Geesh grow some skin.
Respect for you has all but dropped after what have been good posts highlighting grace.
Perhaps show some of that by which you are saved SoCal. When you saw what I was getting at, a simple response was all that was needed qualifying such a statement within the context of salvation, but you dug in. To me that shows something more.

I used your word, lol. It's ok when you use it, but when I do I need to "grow some skin".

Planks and splinters....

SoCal, I just like to pick on your anti-Lordship Salvation 'cause I'm in the closet on it.

RickD, I've thought on what you said, and think you're misreading Graham like he was misread on his Muslims can go to heaven thing also. In fact, what Graham said on the latter is that God calls Muslims to be saved too, but he's always been adamant in what I see as Jesus only ever being the way.

Now, I'm not a Billy Graham lover, really didn't know what the guy looked like until yesterday. His crusades in Australia happened in the 50s before I was born. Today I'm not sure we realise what an impact he actually had on people in the world, and in our societies at the time. If there was anyone blessed as an evangelist, the more I learn the more he seems to have had some legitimate anointing that he was fulfilling. People just craved going to see the guy, and he preached Jesus in a very upfront and raw Christian fashion.

That said, even those fulfilling a unique calling can have their theology wrong. So does he support Lordship Salvation, I'm not so sure based upon what I've read, but I can definitely see where some knee-jerk reactions might be had with similar words like "turn from sin". People sometimes go on a witch hunt where there are no witches.

You know, I kind of feel we did this in the past with Gman, though at the time he seemed to flip-flop one way and the other whoever was asking. I know his theology was wrong, but then he was still a brother in Christ. No doubt, it contributed to his leaving. Then once in the past, around a year ago, I felt the need to detail more in full what I meant as you put me under the thumb and I felt spotlight about a year ago. Though I was perplexed by your questioning me, since we had already both had extensive past discussions, so I'd have thought you'd know where I was placed on such matters like grace, the Law and salvation. Ok, enough there... I'm just saying that sometimes the witches are mistaken, and we shouldn't be so quick to malign others. So then, turning to Graham...

RickD wrote:Kurieuo,
Here it is in black and white, from Billy Graham's website. This shows the context you didn't bother to ask about.
http://peacewithgod.net/should-not-perish/

We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness. Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance. Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty. We suggest praying the following prayer to accept Christ as your Savior:

Edit---

This one is even more blatant. When asked "What do I have to do to go to heaven?"

What do I have to do to go to heaven?

God isn’t waiting to judge you. God isn’t waiting to condemn you. He’s waiting to receive you with mercy, with love, with open arms, and forgive all your sins. Will you come to Him? Will you turn from your sin and promise to live for Him? He can transform your life—and you can look forward to eternity with Him in heaven.

Rick, I've read over the words and don't find a guilty charge.

I don't care to defend Graham, but rather the truth of the matter as I see it. I'm in agreement with what I read when taken collectively on that page you link to. NOTE this which underscores everything: "What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty."

There are often knee-jerk reactions that happen. For example, Graham said some stuff about God calling Muslims to be saved which doesn't mean he meant Muslims can be saved and yet they can be if they turn to Christ. In every speech Graham gives, it's always been there's one way and that way is through Christ alone. If there is a charge to be made against Graham, I'd think it more being an easy believe-ism theology that were had throughout Graham's crusades.

To be Christian, a change in us must happen somewhere. The core of this is a change is in our disposition of heart, belief then follows accordingly and we'll often act in accord with our beliefs. Not necessarily consistently so, but when we are frustrated or don't behave according to our heart's desire, then we're often disappointed with ourselves, feel guilty and seek forgiveness. When one's heart turns in towards God, positively responds to God's call, at that moment our hearts do turn away from the world. Jesus does become our Lord, there is no Christian who does not have Christ as their Lord and God.

You cannot serve both money and God, either one is your master or the other. (Matt 6:24) God will spew those who are lukewarm out of his mouth. (Rev 3:16) Those particular verses come to mind, but they're not to do with a saved person's works or remaining sinless. They're to do with the non-saved person. Revelations 3 actually mentions the deeds of the church in Laodicea (Rev 3:15), but in light of other Scripture Christ clearly has our back on our failures. So then if Christ has our backs as Christians, who are being spewed out? Those who aren't really Christian who are in the church is how I interpret it. The heart of many of church in Laodicea aren't concerned at all with God or others. I suppose in many respects there are similarities to the lives of a televangelists who buy cars, private jets, sell their holy water and goods the like, because their true master is found in this world -- they are really a god unto themselves and taking advantage of the truth of Christ. Such, Christ will say begone for I never knew you and He'll spew them out of His mouth.

So then, one can believe God exists, that Christ died for them, say the words I believe in Christ for forgiveness, but if their heart hasn't changed, then they're not Christian at all. And by that, they're not saved by the blood of Christ. They don't truly believe aka trust in Christ at all. Such I see is the ontology of belief, which many Christians do not focus on at all, but I find a rich ontology of belief given in Scripture and by Paul in Scripture (cf. Romans 10). And the roots of belief always tends to come back to the heart.

Now changing the topic back to our sin post-coming to Christ as our Lord, there will always be a conflict of two natures while we're alive in this world. Paul discusses this and encourages us to turn from sin. Yet, by no means is Paul saying that we'll live without sin and if we don't such shows we haven't turned from sin. Quite the opposite Paul argues, speaking of our wrestle with sin. We only wrestle with it because we love God and such shows our heart's true desire imo.

SoCal, if I have any real complaint against you, it that like ACB to distracts threads with Gappy stuff all the time, you seems to like distracting threads with anti-Lordship Salvation. It is something you're very sensitive to, but unlike ACB's gap, this really is an important issue. But then, perhaps one can be overly vigilant, like on a witch hunt to try and uncover those who don't understand. I'm sure some words I've spoken here will make hairs stand on end. In fact, I feel the witch hunter in both you and Rick coming after me a little for interrupting your anti-LS remarks re: Graham. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive.

But if there is a "clobbering" that happened, I felt JButler in the process for merely mentioning Graham's name and how he helps bring a positive change to an end times phobia that he had in life. Then that was clobbered on the head with Graham being framed as a LS heretic.

If anyone deserves an apology it's JButler because we've taken his thread off topic. Sorry JB, for continuing the take the thread off your initial post, but hopefully it can now return to it. I'll start pulling my head in. And SoCal, I actually do like many of your contributions to the board.

Kurieuo wrote:
RickD, I've thought on what you said, and think you're misreading Graham like he was misread on his Muslims can go to heaven thing also. In fact, what Graham said on the latter is that God calls Muslims to be saved too, but he's always been adamant in what I see as Jesus only ever being the way.

Keeping the Muslim issue aside, because I'm not familiar with what he said, how am I misreading Graham? When asked a direct question, "What must I do to go to heaven", part of the answer is, "Will you turn from your sin...". That's Lordship Salvation.

You know, I kind of feel we did this in the past with Gman, though at the time he seemed to flip-flop one way and the other whoever was asking. I know his theology was wrong, but then he was still a brother in Christ. No doubt, it contributed to his leaving. Then once in the past, around a year ago, I felt the need to detail more in full what I meant as you put me under the thumb and I felt spotlight about a year ago. Though I was perplexed by your questioning me, since we had already both had extensive past discussions, so I'd have thought you'd know where I was placed on such matters like grace, the Law and salvation. Ok, enough there... I'm just saying that sometimes the witches are mistaken, and we shouldn't be so quick to malign others. So then, turning to Graham...

K,

If you don't mind, could you post the link to the conversation we had where I put you under the thumb, so to speak?
If you don't want to post it here, you can pm me. I honestly don't remember any conversations like that.

And fwiw,

I'm sure Billy Graham has helped bring a lot of people to Christ, despite the message on his website, that we must turn from sin to be saved.

I'm not taking anything away from the good he has done. Just pointing out an error on his website. I'm not sure if he himself even believes that. Maybe someone on his site posted it, and Graham is unaware.

Well, I agree with K on Graham.

He is saying a whole lot of bible in as few words as possible.

We no longer have a Billy Graham going world wide as a beckon back to God and confronting, boldly confronting evil, sin, and telling it like it is anymore.

As soon as Graham retired due to health issues, the moral decline in this nation is on meth a binge.

Anyways, Jesus is Lord...
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RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:
RickD, I've thought on what you said, and think you're misreading Graham like he was misread on his Muslims can go to heaven thing also. In fact, what Graham said on the latter is that God calls Muslims to be saved too, but he's always been adamant in what I see as Jesus only ever being the way.

Keeping the Muslim issue aside, because I'm not familiar with what he said, how am I misreading Graham? When asked a direct question, "What must I do to go to heaven", part of the answer is, "Will you turn from your sin...". That's Lordship Salvation.

I don't see Graham (that page you linked) saying that this is what you must do to go to heaven: "turn from your sin". Rather, I understand the meaning of what is being said like: "Do you want to turn from your sin? Do you really desire what God wants? Do you really desire Christ in your heart?"

That's how Graham intends his question to be taken in purview of his fuller words. Words like "There is nothing you can do to earn God’s forgiveness; it is possible only by His grace when you have faith in Him." Or, "We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness."

Now in anticipation of your response, yes, I read Graham's words just after; but to be fair to him, I'm looking entirely at the correct "grace" side here. So then Graham adds, "Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance." which is suspicious right? But, he doesn't leave it there but adds even more: "Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty." So it boils down to how we truly do feel about Christ that matters, our hearts, inner most desire. Note, the sinner's prayer that Graham also recommends at the end:

• “Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness. I believe you died for my sins and rose from the dead. I trust and follow you as my Lord and Savior. Guide my life and help me to do your will. In your name, Amen.”

In this prayer is a concession against the wrong theology contained within "Lordship Salvation", and that is Graham expects a Christian will continue sinning after they come to Christ. Graham isn't saying, "Guide my life and allow me to remain sinless," but merely "help me to do your will." -- the "help" implies we're going to struggle. What Christian who comes to Christ doesn't want God's will? I'll tell you, the "Christian" who is part of the Laodicean church (Rev 3:14-16).

Therefore, taken as a whole on that page, it seems it is being said when one comes to Christ they are sorry and really do want Christ to be their Lord. Although they might struggle in actions, their heart truly is repentant and desires Christ. Thus, they believe in Christ, which is an outworking of the heart.

When our hearts turn towards Christ and acknowledge him as Lord, don't we want what Christ wants? Isn't a central part of being Christian acknowledging that Christ is Lord and right, and we are wrong? We don't become Christian with the intention to remain anti-Christ do we saying, "Oh, I'll believe you Christ, but I hate everything about you and what you see as right, so I'm going to continue murdering, lying and stealing." As Paul himself exclaimed, "God forbid!" (Romans 6:2) Therefore, in our hearts we do in fact make Christ as our Lord.

Yet, it doesn't follow from that, that we'll perfectly serve Christ. Our hearts long for Christ and to do what is right, but we fail in action. It's the reverse situation from Israel where it is written (paraphrasing), "They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." or how about in Psalm 40: "Sacrifice and offering God did not desire or require... I delight to do your will my God, your Law is within my heart." Consider the prophecy in Jeremiah 31:33, ""This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

You see, Lordship salvation stripped back to an essential etymological meaning is certainly theologically correct, that is, Christ indeed becomes our Lord when we come to Him. Christ becomes the Lord of our hearts and we aspire to rightly serve Him. I feel a great number of Christians become depressed in life, because their hearts burn for God and Christ, and yet they feel trapped by living in society, living day to day. Yet, Christ is definitely #1 on their hearts, of course Christ must be top priority if He is our sovereign Lord. So then, there is no issue with Christians placing "Christ as Lord," such ought to be the case. And if someone doesn't want Christ to be their Lord, then they can't logically be a part of Christ's kingdom -- simple as that.

It is wrong however to then add to "Lordship" the idea that one must faithfully serve and continually keep the Law or commandments in order to be or remain saved -- that's where it greatly errs! I don't see Graham endorsing that. Such a view leads to Christians judging others by their sins, about whether or not they are truly saved, etc, etc which is just absolute hogwash and those promoting such I believe will likely be shamed and judged by Christ as hypocrites in accordance to His words in Matt 7.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:You know, I kind of feel we did this in the past with Gman, though at the time he seemed to flip-flop one way and the other whoever was asking. I know his theology was wrong, but then he was still a brother in Christ. No doubt, it contributed to his leaving. Then once in the past, around a year ago, I felt the need to detail more in full what I meant as you put me under the thumb and I felt spotlight about a year ago. Though I was perplexed by your questioning me, since we had already both had extensive past discussions, so I'd have thought you'd know where I was placed on such matters like grace, the Law and salvation. Ok, enough there... I'm just saying that sometimes the witches are mistaken, and we shouldn't be so quick to malign others. So then, turning to Graham...

K,

If you don't mind, could you post the link to the conversation we had where I put you under the thumb, so to speak?
If you don't want to post it here, you can pm me. I honestly don't remember any conversations like that.

I found the thread here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 30&t=40509; at the time I remember feeling you pinching me, but looking back it seems perhaps our ships just sailed by each other without really paying closer attention to what each were saying.